Suboptimal AI-behaviour, a collection

[EwaldvonKleist]

The behaviour of enemy and own AI controlled ships often is suboptimal, although I have seen the AI pull its share of clever manoeuvres too. I would like to collect some typical patterns in this thread so it can be improved. I also described some patterns in my thread on the UI improvements.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Behaviour 1: Swarming crippled enemy ships. When you have severely damaged an enemy ship, forcing it to fall behind or lay still in the water, your AI controlled divisions often like to circle around it, much like a bee swarm would with its queen. This behaviour is particularly pronounced for DDs, an especially crass example you can see attached: A crippled B (in 1915 no less) attracts the attention of several DDdivs, which occasionally launch torps on it. Some are on screen, others on support of their lead BBdiv.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Behaviour 2: Random charges against the enemy with heavy ships. This behaviour is more rare, but especially consequential from a VP perspective. Sometimes the enemy AI simply decides to charge your battle line with a div of heavy ships, often unsupported. Here is an example where the AI did that. It took this route with its BBs completely out of its own free will, there was no DD threat or other friendly fleet pushing it in this direction, and left behind all of the many supporting DDs, CLs, CAs and BCs. Essentially, this unforced error lost UK the war, since my battleline easily dominated afterwards.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Behaviour 3: Not knowing when to run for good. This may be intentional to make battles more engaging, but from my feeling the AI often does not understand when to retreat and follows an out of sight, out of mind logic. During a merchant raider interception, there is a simple algorithm to follow: Can I defeat the enemy with good chances? If yes, fight. If not, set max speed and head in the opposite direction or even better, a friendly port.
What I often experience is that the enemy correctly perceives the situation and starts to run. Once out of sight, it starts to reduce speed or patrol somewhere, allowing me to catch up or cut it off from its friendly harbour.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Behaviour 4: Light forces don't counterattack. Destroyers were originally called that way because they were supposed to defend against enemy torpedo attacks on the heavier ships. But ingame, destroyers generally simply don't care if their superior heavy division is charged by enemy light forces, no matter their assigned role (from my understanding, they should be most protective on the support role). Here you can see just one example of many. The destroyers outnumber the enemy and there is no other target to attack and the weather is okish. Still they completely ignore the mortal threat to their beloved lead division.
Most of my DD captains would have been court-martialed for dereliction of duty many times over IRL.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Behaviour 5: The Beatty syndrome, or needlessly slugging it out with scout forces. During larger engagements, the enemy AI likes to fight with BC and even CA forces against my battleline out of range of their BB support. Predictably, this doesn't end well. Attached is a typical example. I have won a number of wars against the UK with inferior fleets by simply picking apart their scout forces with my main force, without truly engaging the enemy main force.

[MaximKI]

Hey thanks for these examples! Do you have save files to any of the AI behavior you've described?

[EwaldvonKleist]

Hey thanks for these examples! Do you have save files to any of the AI behavior you've described?

Hey, unfortunately not. But if you play a 1900 to 1930 campaign with some wars, you are very likely to encounter them. I did not make saves since this are just screenshots from an AAR for another forum.

Speaking of saves, it would be great to have a "bug report" button in the game that just takes the game and creates a .zip save named rtw_nation_date.zip on the Desktop.
Since save game slots are limited and you always overwrite the last game in your slot when saving, bug reporting is made more difficult, because you have to sacrifice your current save to create a bug-report-save. There are workarounds, but it requires some manual folder copying etc., so it is not the "comfy" choice to report a bug, especially considering the addictive one-more-turn nature of RtW3!

[EwaldvonKleist]

Behaviour 2: Random charges against the enemy with heavy ships. This behaviour is more rare, but especially consequential from a VP perspective. Sometimes the enemy AI simply decides to charge your battle line with a div of heavy ships, often unsupported. Here is an example where the AI did that. It took this route with its BBs completely out of its own free will, there was no DD threat or other friendly fleet pushing it in this direction, and left behind all of the many supporting DDs, CLs, CAs and BCs. Essentially, this unforced error lost UK the war, since my battleline easily dominated afterwards.

Here is another example, this time with a savegame. My ships are numerically superior and qualitatively massively superior, still the enemy runs straight into them without any forcing reason (like a destroyer attack pushing them in the direction of my BBs).
The AI is also quite susceptible to baiting. Prepare your battle line somewhere, attract the AI with some ships, enjoy them running in your prepared killing zone.
In this battle, the enemy spotted my battlecruisers, I retreat towards my forming battleline, AI pursues due to initial superiority, but continues even when it is clear that they are running into my main force. It turns away soon after I took the screenshot, but by that time it suffered my full broadsides for quite some time.

[MaximKI]

Behaviour 2: Random charges against the enemy with heavy ships. This behaviour is more rare, but especially consequential from a VP perspective. Sometimes the enemy AI simply decides to charge your battle line with a div of heavy ships, often unsupported. Here is an example where the AI did that. It took this route with its BBs completely out of its own free will, there was no DD threat or other friendly fleet pushing it in this direction, and left behind all of the many supporting DDs, CLs, CAs and BCs. Essentially, this unforced error lost UK the war, since my battleline easily dominated afterwards.

Here is another example, this time with a savegame. My ships are numerically superior and qualitatively massively superior, still the enemy runs straight into them without any forcing reason (like a destroyer attack pushing them in the direction of my BBs).
The AI is also quite susceptible to baiting. Prepare your battle line somewhere, attract the AI with some ships, enjoy them running in your prepared killing zone.
In this battle, the enemy spotted my battlecruisers, I retreat towards my forming battleline, AI pursues due to initial superiority, but continues even when it is clear that they are running into my main force. It turns away soon after I took the screenshot, but by that time it suffered my full broadsides for quite some time.

Thanks! The more saves you can give us the easier it'll be to investigate the issues. We'll consider your bug report suggestion.

[Tarhunnas]

Thanks for your detailed feedback!

Will take a look at this as time permits.

Behaviour 1 is to some extent intended, reflecting for example the British concentration on the crippled Blücher or later similarly with the Wiesbaden. Though admittedly it can be somewhat exaggerated at times, and could probably be toned down.

Behaviour 2 could be caused by conning tower hit, bridge hit or rudder damage to the enemy flagship. Not saying it is caused by that in all cases, but it could be a cause.

Thanks.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Thanks for your detailed feedback!

Will take a look at this as time permits.

Behaviour 1 is to some extent intended, reflecting for example the British concentration on the crippled Blücher or later similarly with the Wiesbaden. Though admittedly it can be somewhat exaggerated at times, and could probably be toned down.

Behaviour 2 could be caused by conning tower hit, bridge hit or rudder damage to the enemy flagship. Not saying it is caused by that in all cases, but it could be a cause.

Thanks.

Thanks for looking into this!
Regarding behaviour 1: From my experience, this behaviour is considerably exaggerated and quite different from what the RN did with Blücher and Wiesbaden. In both cases the RN made a choice to finish a damaged ship. It could have also decided not to, but you as an ingame admiral can't unless you constantly manage your DDdivs by hand.

A massive help would be a setting for your ships to ignore a particular enemy ship. IRL, commanders were conscious what they used their torpedos and heavy shells for, and as an admiral I would be absolutely able to tell my units to not fire on a crippled enemy ship. Some occasional misunderstanding would be fine of course. Ingame I often deliberately avoid passing a crippled enemy ship so my ships don't waste their ammo on it.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Thanks for your detailed feedback!

Will take a look at this as time permits.

Behaviour 1 is to some extent intended, reflecting for example the British concentration on the crippled Blücher or later similarly with the Wiesbaden. Though admittedly it can be somewhat exaggerated at times, and could probably be toned down.

Behaviour 2 could be caused by conning tower hit, bridge hit or rudder damage to the enemy flagship. Not saying it is caused by that in all cases, but it could be a cause.

Thanks.

Here is another example of behaviour 1. The DD circles a clearly destroyed enemy ship. It does nothing useful there. DDs have a magical attraction for crippled enemy ships.
If the DD has the choice between joining the battle of Jutland on the side of its lead div and circling a random ship without doing anything useful, often not even launching its torpedos but eating several shots, it will always chose the latter. Together with its 10 other friends who are doing the same.

[pnzrgnral]

I'd like to add to this thread, concerning AI behavior. To preface, I really enjoy this game but I've endured some frustrations as to certain AI - or game functions. As to the AI...
I recently played a scenario in which my nation (Austria-Hungary) is at war with Italy. The mission was convoy defense; the AI-selected cover force under my control was a CA division with a DD division in support. So I'm in complete control of my cruisers, they spot the enemy, I send them off to place themselves between the Italians and the convoy, and...here comes the cavalry! (The force wasn't even on the map at start, it just showed up out of thin air like Clint Eastwood in Pale Rider). My BB squadron appears, all three without DD's in support, and COMPLETELY under AI control. What could go wrong? As the turns progressed, with the BBs being sent willy-nilly by the AI and never in gun range of the enemy, they FINALLY make a move towards - you guessed it - enemy DDs. Straight at them. The AI-driven BBs conducted themselves as the best torpedo magnets ever conceived by human imagination. In short order, all three were torpedoed and lost, and there wasn't a thing I could do to stop it. So in one fell swoop, I lose all of my nation's BBs. Had I been in control, had I made the decisions and mouse clicks, I wouldn't mention this at all unless it were under a "Lessons Learned - Don't Do What I Did" thread.
I'd like to second an earlier mention and perhaps expand on it. When you have ships that have different speeds in the same squadron, whether by design or damage, you can't manually take them out or otherwise adjust. When you start a new turn at war and you accept a battle handed to you by the computer, you get exactly what the AI offers you and no more, no less. One example is I had two divisions of CAs - one of slow, 22kt coal-driven oldies and the other of 27kt oil-driven improvements. Completely separate divisions. What does the AI do at battle start? Combined both divisions, while dropping one of the faster ships by itself into a separate division. Huh? Really? Challenge belatedly accepted, time to make lemonade from limes...
I'm no good at screen shots or the like or I'd have included them in this minor rant. This is all I have at the moment for AI stuff; I'll post another time for game functions I've found problematic. Anyway, despite my insane attempts to get Austria-Hungary past 1922, I'm enjoying this game. The simplicity of the graphics (2D, overhead) takes me back a few decades, although the present graphics are MUCH better than their ancestral counterparts.
One thing to add, in case I haven't yet seen it posted in earlier threads: will the Ottoman Empire be included in an update? Other minor nations, like in Scandanavia, South America? The world wonders...

Cheers

[jwsmith26]

I'd like to add to this thread, concerning AI behavior. To preface, I really enjoy this game but I've endured some frustrations as to certain AI - or game functions. As to the AI...
I recently played a scenario in which my nation (Austria-Hungary) is at war with Italy. The mission was convoy defense; the AI-selected cover force under my control was a CA division with a DD division in support. So I'm in complete control of my cruisers, they spot the enemy, I send them off to place themselves between the Italians and the convoy, and...here comes the cavalry! (The force wasn't even on the map at start, it just showed up out of thin air like Clint Eastwood in Pale Rider). My BB squadron appears, all three without DD's in support, and COMPLETELY under AI control. What could go wrong? As the turns progressed, with the BBs being sent willy-nilly by the AI and never in gun range of the enemy, they FINALLY make a move towards - you guessed it - enemy DDs. Straight at them. The AI-driven BBs conducted themselves as the best torpedo magnets ever conceived by human imagination. In short order, all three were torpedoed and lost, and there wasn't a thing I could do to stop it. So in one fell swoop, I lose all of my nation's BBs. Had I been in control, had I made the decisions and mouse clicks, I wouldn't mention this at all unless it were under a "Lessons Learned - Don't Do What I Did" thread.
I'd like to second an earlier mention and perhaps expand on it. When you have ships that have different speeds in the same squadron, whether by design or damage, you can't manually take them out or otherwise adjust. When you start a new turn at war and you accept a battle handed to you by the computer, you get exactly what the AI offers you and no more, no less. One example is I had two divisions of CAs - one of slow, 22kt coal-driven oldies and the other of 27kt oil-driven improvements. Completely separate divisions. What does the AI do at battle start? Combined both divisions, while dropping one of the faster ships by itself into a separate division. Huh? Really? Challenge belatedly accepted, time to make lemonade from limes...
I'm no good at screen shots or the like or I'd have included them in this minor rant. This is all I have at the moment for AI stuff; I'll post another time for game functions I've found problematic. Anyway, despite my insane attempts to get Austria-Hungary past 1922, I'm enjoying this game. The simplicity of the graphics (2D, overhead) takes me back a few decades, although the present graphics are MUCH better than their ancestral counterparts.
One thing to add, in case I haven't yet seen it posted in earlier threads: will the Ottoman Empire be included in an update? Other minor nations, like in Scandanavia, South America? The world wonders...

Cheers

From your description of the battle in which you lost your battleships, especially your description of their sudden appearance, unwise behavior and being beyond your control, I suspect that these ships entered the battle as a "Support force". You have no control over this force and it often operates in a quite illogical fashion, seemingly ignoring the presence of both your own forces and the maneuvers of the enemy unless it is fired upon. The support force can occasionally provide some benefit but more often I have found that the support force is an agent of chaos. The often irrational behavior of the support force can derail your tactical plans and cause you to lose ships and battles.

You can turn off the support force by unchecking the "Support force can appear in battles" option in Preferences.

[pnzrgnral]

I'd like to add to this thread, concerning AI behavior. To preface, I really enjoy this game but I've endured some frustrations as to certain AI - or game functions. As to the AI...
I recently played a scenario in which my nation (Austria-Hungary) is at war with Italy. The mission was convoy defense; the AI-selected cover force under my control was a CA division with a DD division in support. So I'm in complete control of my cruisers, they spot the enemy, I send them off to place themselves between the Italians and the convoy, and...here comes the cavalry! (The force wasn't even on the map at start, it just showed up out of thin air like Clint Eastwood in Pale Rider). My BB squadron appears, all three without DD's in support, and COMPLETELY under AI control. What could go wrong? As the turns progressed, with the BBs being sent willy-nilly by the AI and never in gun range of the enemy, they FINALLY make a move towards - you guessed it - enemy DDs. Straight at them. The AI-driven BBs conducted themselves as the best torpedo magnets ever conceived by human imagination. In short order, all three were torpedoed and lost, and there wasn't a thing I could do to stop it. So in one fell swoop, I lose all of my nation's BBs. Had I been in control, had I made the decisions and mouse clicks, I wouldn't mention this at all unless it were under a "Lessons Learned - Don't Do What I Did" thread.
I'd like to second an earlier mention and perhaps expand on it. When you have ships that have different speeds in the same squadron, whether by design or damage, you can't manually take them out or otherwise adjust. When you start a new turn at war and you accept a battle handed to you by the computer, you get exactly what the AI offers you and no more, no less. One example is I had two divisions of CAs - one of slow, 22kt coal-driven oldies and the other of 27kt oil-driven improvements. Completely separate divisions. What does the AI do at battle start? Combined both divisions, while dropping one of the faster ships by itself into a separate division. Huh? Really? Challenge belatedly accepted, time to make lemonade from limes...
I'm no good at screen shots or the like or I'd have included them in this minor rant. This is all I have at the moment for AI stuff; I'll post another time for game functions I've found problematic. Anyway, despite my insane attempts to get Austria-Hungary past 1922, I'm enjoying this game. The simplicity of the graphics (2D, overhead) takes me back a few decades, although the present graphics are MUCH better than their ancestral counterparts.
One thing to add, in case I haven't yet seen it posted in earlier threads: will the Ottoman Empire be included in an update? Other minor nations, like in Scandanavia, South America? The world wonders...

Cheers

From your description of the battle in which you lost your battleships, especially your description of their sudden appearance, unwise behavior and being beyond your control, I suspect that these ships entered the battle as a "Support force". You have no control over this force and it often operates in a quite illogical fashion, seemingly ignoring the presence of both your own forces and the maneuvers of the enemy unless it is fired upon. The support force can occasionally provide some benefit but more often I have found that the support force is an agent of chaos. The often irrational behavior of the support force can derail your tactical plans and cause you to lose ships and battles.

You can turn off the support force by unchecking the "Support force can appear in battles" option in Preferences.

jwsmith26, thanks! I wasn't aware of that option. Thanks to you, I'll take a hard look at preferences!

[Bigfish]

I'd like to second an earlier mention and perhaps expand on it. When you have ships that have different speeds in the same squadron, whether by design or damage, you can't manually take them out or otherwise adjust. When you start a new turn at war and you accept a battle handed to you by the computer, you get exactly what the AI offers you and no more, no less. One example is I had two divisions of CAs - one of slow, 22kt coal-driven oldies and the other of 27kt oil-driven improvements. Completely separate divisions. What does the AI do at battle start? Combined both divisions, while dropping one of the faster ships by itself into a separate division. Huh? Really? Challenge belatedly accepted, time to make lemonade from limes...

Yes, I mentioned that here before:


https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=397130


I have no idea why the devs are stubborn about letting the battle generator produce this chaos. The reasoning that a real admiral couldn't pick any raisins is only partially correct. A real admiral would still not put together such completely bizarre divisions if the available material gave it differently. This was already referred to as suboptimal behavior in RTW2. Thought it would finally get better with the division designer from RTW3, but no. Incomprehensible.

Please, dear developers, choose the divisions as they are from the division designer and don't mix them up anymore.

[thedoctorking]

Another thing that is not suboptimal but still annoying is when the AI accepts battle with an inferior force and then just runs for it without engaging at all. If they had refused battle before setting up the scenario, I would have won some points, but if they just set up and boogie, no points. Of course, I can do the same thing, and have, but I think it is gamey. If you "engage" in a battle, flee, and never fire a shot, I think your opponent should get the "made them run away" points.

[WLRoo]

Another thing that is not suboptimal but still annoying is when the AI accepts battle with an inferior force and then just runs for it without engaging at all. If they had refused battle before setting up the scenario, I would have won some points, but if they just set up and boogie, no points. Of course, I can do the same thing, and have, but I think it is gamey. If you "engage" in a battle, flee, and never fire a shot, I think your opponent should get the "made them run away" points.

Oh, they're just as good at running with superior forces should you handle the AI roughly enough and they have the 'Cautious' national trait.

Also remember, the AI is basing it's decision on it's own intelligence briefing - it doesn't actually know what you've got until the scenario starts *and* the AI has eyes on your ships. Also, the AI can suffer from misidentification, just like the humans, leaving them fleeing in terror from your CA (which is actually a large CL).

Finally, there's been more than once i've been only too happy to flee an enemy due to my margin of superiority being far lower than expected.

[thedoctorking]

Yes, I understand that they might have decided to run away after seeing my fleet. However, my argument is that then the side that chased their enemies away should get some victory point award similar to what they would have gotten had the enemy refused battle in the first place. And if the player runs away, same thing.