4th and 11th SS PZG issues and arrival issues

[Cavalry Corp]

Hi

4th SS PZG (Police) appears on the map as part of AGN in I think March 43 - should appear in Balkans TB.
11th SS PZG appears about the same time then upgraded in my game to TOE of 1944 PZG in April 43 - seems wrong to me. This unit also should appear in Balkans TB with III SS PZC under Steiner it seems.

Seems to me that the Balkan TB garrison requirement seems a bit low? But I'm not arguing the case as so much is stacked against the axis already in this game.

This is all according to Wikipedia.

Cav

[Joel Billings]

I couldn't find the units in the 41 campaign after a quick check. Can you provide more info as to exactly when you see them appearing in game (I assume you are talking about the 41 campaign, right)? I'm going to move this to the data area.

[Denniss]

They are renames/reforms from existing units.
The dates for reform and TB transfers may need some investigation

[Cavalry Corp]

Sorry just seen this - Here are some corrections to my earlier post.

4th SS PZG is the re spawn of SS Polizi (disband March 43). I think the arrival date should be May 43 and 4th SS PZG should be in Balkans TB (or Reserve TB). I doubt it was a true PZG units in game terms it was a reinforced probably motorised security unit really. Maybe should be upgraded c end 44 to true PZG.

Arrival for 11th SS should probably be about Sept 43 in the Balkans TB. It was a new division. The early upgrade in my game seems wrong it upgraded almost as soon as it came on (March 43 in my game) to 44 PZG. It would be nice if it was identified with a name as well as a number in the game.

BTW the 3rd SS Pz Corps should also appear in the Balkans box under Steiner about April/May 43 though in game terms 3rd SS seems to come on map almost as soon as its created.

The SS Pzc should be under Hausser when it arrives in 42 I mentioned in another post. Hausser seems bit under rated IMO considering the early 43 successes he had but maybe thats an endless discussion. Been listening to tons of stuff on audible.

I am playing 41 - 45 campaign no early end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_SS_Po ... r_Division

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_SS_V ... n_Nordland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/III_(Germ ... nzer_Corps

tks.

[Great_Ajax]

From Lexicon Der Wehrmacht: Im April 1943 wurde damit begonnen, die aus Rußland zur Auffrischung ins Reich verlegten Teile der SS-Polizei-Division zusammen zu fassen und zu einer SS-Panzergrenadier-Division umzugliedern.

The Division was beginning to be transformed into a Panzergrenadier Division in April 43. That transformation process is going to take time as old elements are replaced and new ground elements are introduced. In the game, the rename takes place on 28 March and with taking a couple of months to make the transformation complete, it won't really be ready for combat until that is complete which could indeed be late April/May. Just to be clear, the Polizei Division is not disbanded - it is just renamed in late March to "4th SS Polizei Division" and then the OB Panzergrenadier upgrade begins in April 43 when it becomes the "4th SS Panzergrenadier Division." Even though the Panzergrenadier upgrade becomes available in April 43, it does not mean that the actual upgrade happens automatically. Sometimes it can take weeks for the OB upgrade to kick in. So, I don't think the in-game dates are bad.

The new OB 2.0 includes the gradual transformation of the Polizei Division starting in April 43 with another upgrade in Oct 43 and then its final robust form in Apr 44. As mentioned earlier, it could take weeks/months for all the elements to get switched out to get to its final form. None of these upgrades are automatic when these dates are reached when a rename is used.

From what I remember, when this transition to Panzergrenadier occurred, parts of the division were all over the place. I could see pushing up arrival to the Balkans to June instead of December.

Not sure what the deal is with the 11 SS Panzergrenadier Division. The core unit in the 41 campaign is the Denmark SS Infantry Battalion that renames to the 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division in March 43. It would be in the player's best interest to pull that unit off the line and put it in the Axis Reserve as that transition from an infantry battalion to a division is going to take time as it is also a rename and not just a disband and arrival of a new unit. It could well be many months before that division is up to strength. If the unit is on the front line, it will more than likely take even more time. The unit is sent to the Balkans in late Aug. 43 as well so I don't see an issue here either.

The III SS Panzer was formed in April 43 but we do treat HQs differently than combat units. Arrival dates for HQs are not when they are formed but when they become operational because they arrive at 100% strength and they don't go through the build-up stage like we do with combat units.

Based on your comments here about disbands and arrivals, I'm not sure you understand how the rename system works in WitE 2. Your description of the arrival of the units sounds more like how the original WITE worked where we had to disband a unit before the new unit could arrive which created some awkwardness of units just vanishing. We use the rename feature in WitE 2 to prevent that awkwardness where we use a core unit that transforms into a revised name using a new OB and the core unit never leaves the game. All of the theater box transfer dates are recorded on the core unit and not the renamed unit. That can be confusing. We also have to consider transition time of upgrades. Just because a unit hits a designated OB upgrade date, it doesn't mean that the unit will automatically upgrade. See the posts on upgrade of the Grossdeutschland Regiment taking weeks or even a few months before the upgrade to division actually kicks in. Even if a unit hits it upgrade, it may take weeks or months for the core unit to transition to all of the changes.

Trey

[Denniss]

German wiki claims the retraining/reformation process of Polizei div started in 4/43 at a SS training ground in Heidelager near Debica Poland. From 7/43 several parts of the division were sent to Balkans (Serbia, Greece afterwards). This transfer was likely piecemail as soon as partial units were deemed somewhat combat ready.
One part of the division was still on the Leningrad front, as Kampfgruppe Polizei-Div, and stayed there until about 5/44.
I believe we could move forward its Balkans transfer to August/September as it was definitely not an active fighting force in the East anymore (bar the Kampfgruppe).

[Cavalry Corp]

Ok thanks for the interest to sort this out and ever improve things - I assume OOB2 will be for some future patch?

BTW another spanner - 14th SS just appeared in my game in May 43 . This unit was raised in mid 43 but was not operational until earliest Feb 44 it seems. They were 4 x oversubscribed with volunteers - there are lots of good vids on U tube about this unit. Also note it was named as Galician - not as Ukrainian. I will leave you guys to decide what's best on names.

cav