Rules question - zero (0) notional in hexes for invasion

[jjdenver]

Hi,
Simple question I think and I think I already know the answer but are the hexes marked in yellow OOS if using limited overseas supply and JP doesn't have any TRS/AMPH in SCS & Bismarck? Assume clear weather not the rain in the pic, although I think weather doesn't matter for calculating notional since any length is allowed. Thanks

wif-1.JPG (244.02 KiB) Viewed 1240 times

[Joseignacio]

I had always thought that a notional unit, if from the minor country, not the major power controlling, was always in supply.

It seems it turns out it is not, it needs to trace to a city and, if there is not an overseas route you are able to trace, it's not. Those cant, except maybe the one close to the Ki-61 and the strait, that would depend on whether you are using Limited Supply Across Straits (opt 12, not sure if you have it in MWIF yet). If there are no enemy fleet hindering it, that hex would have supply from Manila, it would be a land path.

Of course, weather doesnt count for the length of the path, but it may count for the penalization depending of the hex you invade from.

[Orm]

A few of those hexes should be in supply from Manila by drawing accross the crossing arrow.

[Joseignacio]

Just had actualized my post. And you are right, some more hexes too, those at the same Peninsula/Island.

[juntoalmar]

Of course, weather doesnt count for the length of the path

It counts when getting supply from a HQ but not from a city?

[Joseignacio]

Of course, weather doesnt count for the length of the path

It counts when getting supply from a HQ but not from a city?

Specific rule for notionals, the way I understand it, from an HQ too but from an HQ it is still a from a secondary source and needs to trace to a primary, unless emergency supply, from RAW:

The notional unit has 1 combat factor, modified by:

 +1 if it is a city hex;
 +1 if the hex is in the home country of the major power that controls the hex;
 +1 if it is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps or army;
 + the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit;
 -1 if it cannot trace a basic supply path of any length; and
 -1 if surprised (see 15.).

[Courtenay]

A notional never needs a HQ for supply. The supply line for a notional is of unlimited length. It can either trace back to a primary source (usually the capital) or it can't.

[jjdenver]

So a notional of an unconquered minor can trace to its' capital - is that right?

Philippines is conquered so must trace to Japan?

Then about the straits hexside, since only USA has naval units in SCS, that means no tracing across the strait (crossing arrow) if the strait supply optional is being used. Is that right?

In this pic all are OOS because of USA naval units in SCS (and no JP units) with the exception of the hexes that can trace across straits then back through another port like Manila and CS to Japan?

[Joseignacio]

So a notional of an unconquered minor can trace to its' capital - is that right?

Philippines is conquered so must trace to Japan?

No, note the "usually" on Courtenay's post, I believe due to many minors not having more than one city (e.g Philippines), which is the capital, many times it is the only one, but sometimes there are more cities to trace.

In fact,a notional can trace to any city of the same nationality. It usually doesn't need to trace to Japan (i.e. it doesnt need to be unless a JA unit is occupying the same hex where that notional is, in which case it would be Japanese) because it usually is a Philippine unit. It only needs to trace to any city in the minor country or territory. It may mean Manila for example, that's a primary for it because it's nationality is Philippine, unless in the aforementioned case.

The notional unit is the same nationality as any major power or minor country with a real unit in the hex (owner’s choice if more than one). If there are no real units, it is the same nationality as the major power or minor country that controls the hex.

Then about the straits hexside, since only USA has naval units in SCS, that means no tracing across the strait (crossing arrow) if the strait supply optional is being used. Is that right?

If you are playing with Option 12, Limited access across straits, and the only units in ALL the seas (there are some straits affected by 2 seas, although not this one) related to that strait are enemy controlled , then there is no possible supply crossing because this optionals equals the requirements to those tracing overseas. But remember that the relevant sea for these hexes is the South China Sea, where the strait is on. If this is blocked and you are using opt 12 then no tracing.

In this pic all are OOS because of USA naval units in SCS (and no JP units) with the exception of the hexes that can trace across straits then back through another port like Manila and CS to Japan?

IMO they should try to trace to philipinian cities (if there are only USA SCSs, then they cant), except the notionals stacked with JA units, which would need to trace to Japan. That would include the hex with the Ki 61

[Joseignacio]

Of course, weather doesnt count for the length of the path

It counts when getting supply from a HQ but not from a city?

Besides, the path is unlimited so they dont need to relay to an HQ, although they can do if you want but they anyway need to reach a primary.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Of course, weather doesnt count for the length of the path

It counts when getting supply from a HQ but not from a city?

Besides, the path is unlimited so they dont need to relay to an HQ, although they can do if you want but they anyway need to reach a primary.

Actually, I have the code limiting the supply distance to 50 hexes (if I remember the number correctly). And the hexes are evaluated as supply hexes; e.g., desert hexes count as 2. This change from the written rules was made because it was taking too much time to examine infinite paths - in Africa and Asia especially.

[jjdenver]

Ty Jose for the reply. But Philippines is a conquered country. Are you saying that a hex gets a notional tracing to a conquered capital only? This means that the conquered troops are defending their country against their liberators? It doesn't make sense to me so I just want to confirm this is correct?

[Joseignacio]

The way I understand it, the possible philipinians pro-Japanese or mercenary would defend those hexes.

I think for a change the rule is clear in this, ... :

Each hex defends against an invasion with a notional land unit, in
addition to any actual land unit in the hex. The notional unit is the same
nationality as any major power or minor country with a real unit in the
hex (owner’s choice if more than one). If there are no real units, it is the
same nationality as the major power or minor country that controls the
hex.

So all Philippine hexes are garrisoned with Phlippinian units except for those with JA units on them (any kind).

Philippinian units need to trace to a Ph primary, i.e. Manila, Japanese to Japan.

Here we can see who controls these hexes:

Untitled.png (24.79 KiB) Viewed 919 times

[Joseignacio]

It counts when getting supply from a HQ but not from a city?

Besides, the path is unlimited so they dont need to relay to an HQ, although they can do if you want but they anyway need to reach a primary.

Actually, I have the code limiting the supply distance to 50 hexes (if I remember the number correctly). And the hexes are evaluated as supply hexes; e.g., desert hexes count as 2. This change from the written rules was made because it was taking too much time to examine infinite paths - in Africa and Asia especially.

I am not the one to correct the developer, but I although I remember clearly that the limit went down to 50 hexes for the reasons you mentioned, I believe there was some info later on that it had gone down to 10 hexes, which seems more coherent with situations we had in our game.

I am not positive, though

[Centuur]

RAW:

Each hex defends against an invasion with a notional land unit, in
addition to any actual land unit in the hex. The notional unit is the
same nationality as any major power or minor country with a real unit
in the hex (owner’s choice if more than one). If there are no real units,
it is the same nationality as the major power or minor country that
controls the hex.

And:

Control of a hex changes when:
• an enemy land unit (except for partisans ~ see 13.1, and supply
units ~ see 22.4.10) enters it (the major power entering with the
most factors if more than one); or
• an (...) minor country (...) is conquered.

What does this means in case of the Philippines:
1. If the Philippines controls the hex, the notional unit is a from that minor country. If however, there is a only a US unit in the hex, the unit has the nationality of that major power. So, if the US notional unit can't trace to a British or US primary supply source, that notional unit has 1 factor less combat factors if compared to a Phillipinian notional unit.

2. If the Philippines have been conquered by Japan, it's Japan who controls that hex. In that case the notional unit needs to trace to a Japanese primary supply source.

[paulderynck]

RAW:

Each hex defends against an invasion with a notional land unit, in
addition to any actual land unit in the hex. The notional unit is the
same nationality as any major power or minor country with a real unit
in the hex (owner’s choice if more than one). If there are no real units,
it is the same nationality as the major power or minor country that
controls the hex.

And:

Control of a hex changes when:
• an enemy land unit (except for partisans ~ see 13.1, and supply
units ~ see 22.4.10) enters it (the major power entering with the
most factors if more than one); or
• an (...) minor country (...) is conquered.

What does this means in case of the Philippines:
1. If the Philippines controls the hex, the notional unit is a from that minor country. If however, there is a only a US unit in the hex, the unit has the nationality of that major power. So, if the US notional unit can't trace to a British or US primary supply source, that notional unit has 1 factor less combat factors if compared to a Phillipinian notional unit.

2. If the Philippines have been conquered by Japan, it's Japan who controls that hex. In that case the notional unit needs to trace to a Japanese primary supply source.

Finally a correct answer in this thread!

[Joseignacio]

Sorry but you both have it wrong.

The second excerpt from the rules I posted, clearly states that

even though Major Powers may control minor countries, it is the minors themselves that control hexes in that minor

This applies to the hexes of an aligned or conquered country, like Philippines in this case.

If the USA had a hex occupied, then "hexes taken from a major power are controlled by the MP taking them ...", but this is not the case.

Once we know that Phiippines is conquered and, so, it's hexes controlled by Philippines itself, we go to the exception:

The notional unit is the same nationality as any major power or minor country with a real unit in the hex (owner’s choice if more than one). If there are no real units, it is the same nationality as the major power or minor country that controls the hex.

So clearly in the hexes with a JA unit, the notional is JA, and in the hexes where there is no JA units it belongs to the minor country controlling the hex, which we have seen at the beginning it was Philipinnes
.

QED

[Centuur]

Than why state in the rules that control changes, when a minor country gets conquered? That doesn't make sense at all.

The way the rules are written makes it clear: a conquered minor country is controlled by the enemy and not by the minor itself.

[Orm]

RAW:

Each hex defends against an invasion with a notional land unit, in
addition to any actual land unit in the hex. The notional unit is the
same nationality as any major power or minor country with a real unit
in the hex (owner’s choice if more than one). If there are no real units,
it is the same nationality as the major power or minor country that
controls the hex.

And:

Control of a hex changes when:
• an enemy land unit (except for partisans ~ see 13.1, and supply
units ~ see 22.4.10) enters it (the major power entering with the
most factors if more than one); or
• an (...) minor country (...) is conquered.

What does this means in case of the Philippines:
1. If the Philippines controls the hex, the notional unit is a from that minor country. If however, there is a only a US unit in the hex, the unit has the nationality of that major power. So, if the US notional unit can't trace to a British or US primary supply source, that notional unit has 1 factor less combat factors if compared to a Phillipinian notional unit.

2. If the Philippines have been conquered by Japan, it's Japan who controls that hex. In that case the notional unit needs to trace to a Japanese primary supply source.

Finally a correct answer in this thread!

You said it.

[Joseignacio]

Checked it in the rules list. In spite of the quoted text, it seems I was wrong.