China on testosterone?

[havoc1371]

I've noticed in my last couple of games playing the Axis that China now seems to not only hold their own, but go on the offensive, driving back the Japanese and forcing them to spend most of their resources replacing losses. What changed? And yes I do know how to play and have been for years, so I'm looking for insight on what changed in the mechanics, not for unsolicited advice on how to play better.

[BillRunacre]

Only small changes in the latest patch:

Chinese Xue HQ’s starting entrenchment increased from 0 to 2, and experience from 0.5 to 1.
Japan now receives a Maritime Bomber rather than a Strategic Bomber in its Production Queue in March 1941 (Chernobyl).

Perhaps ask your opponents what they are doing now that they may not have been doing before?

[petedalby]

I've always found that an aggressive Chinese defence can hurt Japan.

Japan starts without C&C or Infantry Warfare. So their only advantage in the early part of the game is Inf Weapons 1. China's morale starts in a healthy state so until Japan upgrades all of its units and/or gets Inf Warfare, China can hurt Japan. Their units are almost on an equal footing.

The other change you will notice is that Japan needs way more Garrisons now to prevent Partisans.

[Bavre]

I agree with Pete, Chad China seems to have come quite in fashion recently.
With their initially only slightly weaker units and strong starting positions they can really dish out some Kung Fu early on. In my experience playing a timid and passive China just gets you killed marginally slower, but with way fewer Jap losses.

[redrum68]

I haven't noticed any significant change to China v Japan balance. Japan has IW1, unit experience, and air superiority so should be able to push and trade well with China. China's only hope is using terrain. I think its less about aggressive vs passive china and more about being opportunistic about attacking Japanese units that you get decent odds on.

Also, the air units flying in bad weather helps Japan since they have air superiority.

[havoc1371]

My Allied opponent feels the same way; China is now too strong now. I upgrade all my Japanese leaders in China and my infantry. I almost always take the majority of the cities immediately closest to the lines, and often press the Chinese back into the interior. But now suddenly I can't get any traction. My play hasn't suddenly eroded or my opponents changed. If nothing has been reworked, then I am at a loss to explain it.

[havoc1371]

I haven't noticed any significant change to China v Japan balance. Japan has IW1, unit experience, and air superiority so should be able to push and trade well with China. China's only hope is using terrain. I think its less about aggressive vs passive china and more about being opportunistic about attacking Japanese units that you get decent odds on.

Also, the air units flying in bad weather helps Japan since they have air superiority.

Currently, anytime my Japanese air fly's, Chinese fighter inflicts 2-4 losses on my fighter and bomber without taking any. My fighter, TAC, and MDM are now beaten down to less than 5 each and his fighter is at full strength as far as I can tell. My CV flying missions in China are pretty much ineffective and take too many losses that I have to now make up. I am used to them taking some losses, but feel they used to be more effective, so the losses were worth the gained experience and losses/fatigue inflicted. Just don't know what is going on if nothing was modified.

[petedalby]

Strange your planes are taking so much damage. Do you have them allocated to your best HQs?

[redrum68]

Currently, anytime my Japanese air fly's, Chinese fighter inflicts 2-4 losses on my fighter and bomber without taking any. My fighter, TAC, and MDM are now beaten down to less than 5 each and his fighter is at full strength as far as I can tell. My CV flying missions in China are pretty much ineffective and take too many losses that I have to now make up. I am used to them taking some losses, but feel they used to be more effective, so the losses were worth the gained experience and losses/fatigue inflicted. Just don't know what is going on if nothing was modified.

The Japanese start with Advanced Fighters lvl 1 so once upgraded their fighter should easily crush the Chinese fighter assuming they both have similar readiness (supply/morale/general). Honestly I usually stop repairing the chinese fighter as it usually trades pretty poorly with the Japanese so is just a drain on MPP. CVs can help a bit early on in the south but they have very limited land unit attack and you want to avoid them fighting against land based fighters.

[havoc1371]

Strange your planes are taking so much damage. Do you have them allocated to your best HQs?

HQ's with 6 or 7 leadership. That's what I don't get. Parity I can deal with, but inflicting 2 hits on a fighter and two hits on a TAC bomber and taking none in return? Of course the combat results in this game can go to the extremes. I've made ground attacks predicted to be 0:3 end up with nothing, and plenty of 0:1 and 1:2 with reverse results. One of these days I'll remember to record every attack I make in a game to see how they average out.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Once the Chinese get AA tech +2 (or Russians for that matter), the Axis air attacks become limited. Then toss out weather turns. Japan cannot afford Ground Attack Tech, for three planes, in long run.

The best way to play the Japs (in China), it's keep couple Elite Armies intact, and grind the Chinese to powder. Super Elite units is where the power comes from in a long war. Toss in a Artillery piece or two. It's quality, not quantity.

Additionally, farm any Air and Naval pieces.
The majority of players dislike farming, but what is the Jap suppose to do when all the Chinese head to the hills.
Practice up the Carriers, Maritime Bombers, Fighters.

-Legend

[Chernobyl]

I agree with Pete, Chad China seems to have come quite in fashion recently.
With their initially only slightly weaker units and strong starting positions they can really dish out some Kung Fu early on. In my experience playing a timid and passive China just gets you killed marginally slower, but with way fewer Jap losses.

I don't know if I agree with this. Based off our playthru/practice, I do remember paying a decent amount for reinforcements as Japan, maybe more than compared to a "passive" Chinese defense, but I don't believe you ever managed to destroy a single Japanese unit, and I remember I felt China was pretty much broken before then usual Pearl Harbor date, freeing up Japanese armies to advance elsewhere. I have seen several games AAR/Youtube where the Japanese fail to conquer China and they pay for it in the long run. They never have the units to take Singapore, pressure Russia, invade India, or whatever. I consider attacking USSR as Japan to be especially key for Axis victory. I believe I was placing a decent amount of money into the Navy to try to be realistic, although I wasn't spending as much as I know some players would like (didn't buy an extra CV). Overall I felt like the "energetic/attacking" Chinese defense was a net negative for China, although of course it depends how correct you are that China is definitely unable to defend itself more passively.

With a sober look at the game mechanics, I wonder if the top tier defense for China might be to nearly run straight for the mountains right away, considering how much of the Japanese ability to break through is based on experience and HQ experience. Definitely worth a test.

[Chernobyl]

Only small changes in the latest patch:

Chinese Xue HQ’s starting entrenchment increased from 0 to 2, and experience from 0.5 to 1.
Japan now receives a Maritime Bomber rather than a Strategic Bomber in its Production Queue in March 1941 (Chernobyl).

Probably the greatest changes this year for China were the 1.15 all weather aircraft which swung heavily in favor of Japanese bombers killing Chinese units early and often, in turn giving those bombers very high experience, which leads to more killing. Patch 1.16 took away some of the bite from the bombers, particularly that medium bomber de-entrenching even in the rain.

Once the Chinese get AA tech +2 (or Russians for that matter), the Axis air attacks become limited. Then toss out weather turns. Japan cannot afford Ground Attack Tech, for three planes, in long run.

I agree getting to top AA seems to be underrated a bit by some of the players, for USSR and China. I would even speed it up for USSR by investing 3 total chits in AA, as getting to level 2 is so critical (you can even upgrade your cities like Moscow to give +1 air defense when you get there, and lets face it the German player is probably going to attack that hex with 5+ bombers on the same turn at some point)

[ThunderLizard11]

China definitely more of cement great wall than before. Japan needs to invest more in unit replacements, etc. and even then China can hold strong until after US enters war. Before it was routine to march to the gates of Chung King and take a backdoor to Burma. Not so much in recent games.

[petedalby]

I don't know if I agree with this. Based off our playthru/practice, I do remember paying a decent amount for reinforcements as Japan, maybe more than compared to a "passive" Chinese defense, but I don't believe you ever managed to destroy a single Japanese unit, and I remember I felt China was pretty much broken before then usual Pearl Harbor date, freeing up Japanese armies to advance elsewhere.

Combat results can vary. In an ELO game vs a highly ranked & experienced opponent, China destroyed a Japanese Army and cut the rail link at Suchow. The Axis player resigned in Nov '39. So an aggressive China can work.

Having said that I am experimenting with a 'head for the hills' approach with China in a new game which so far is working quite well.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

China either dies a hero, or lives long enough to become the villain

-General Guan Yu

[sokulsky]

I'm just after one game (AXIS, lost) but have a lot of experience in old SC classics and SC:ACW game.

Probably proper way to do with them is to:
- attach the best armies and tactical/med bombers to the best HQ's
- farm CHI units to the best armies/tac bombers
- provide elite reinforcements to the best armies/tac bombers/fighters
- hunt down any airforce CHI muster
- get all artillery pieces there

Other than that, I find JAP position in this game rather precarious/requiring very good-to-perfect game against any at-least-competent player.