Quick Turnaround Problem [Regarding log 0015363]

[decaf]

Running Command v.1.06 Build 1328.10a -- not using Steam
Win 11 Pro -- up to date

Playing Op Desert Falcon--need to evac 500 civilians from Massenya.
Using 3x A.400m Atlas transports on Ferry mission between Libreville
and Massenya. The first run to Massenya is OK, and I get quick
turnaround there. The return run to Libreville is OK, and I get
quick turnaround there, too. This counts as 2 sorties for each Atlas.
I still have more civilians to rescue from Massenya.

I understand I should get a max of 4 sorties and max accumulated flight
time of 8 hours before quick turnaround is disabled.

I do a second run to Massenya, but I do NOT get quick turnaround there.
I monitored the landing of the transports. The screenshot shows that
#1 (which just finished 3 sorties with under 6 hours of flight time)
did NOT get quick turnaround (although it was enabled) and was given
a 4 hour time to ready. Note in this first screenshot, that #3,
right behind #1, shows a 2 sortie count, and flight time of 5:41 hours.

screen1.png (910.45 KiB) Viewed 488 times

The next screenshot (taken 35 seconds later) shows #3 still enabled
for quick turnaround, but is given a turnaround time of 4 hours.
The same thing happens with #2. (screenshot available if desired.)
This behavior is particularly bad because Massenya is a hot zone.
Not a place to do maintenance checks.

screen2.png (908.72 KiB) Viewed 488 times

Attached is a save game: OpDF12.save (zipped)
It has Atlas #1 on final approach, with #2 and #3 in the queue.
I emphasize, I got quick turnaround on the first Massenya
landings, and also on the Libreville landings. It behaves as if
I am only allowed a max of 2 sorties and/or max 4 hours of
accumulated flight time.

Please let me know if I am doing something wrong, or if I am
misinterpreting the Air Ops display.

Thanks for any help.

[FifthDomain]

I tried this on a fresh save and after sortie 3 of 4 there was not enough time remaining of the eight hours to make the forth flight back.

This was in the log:

"08/06/2027 03:04:30 - [France] ET 3/61e Poitou #1 (A.400M Atlas [Grizzly]) has flown 3 of 4 sorties. Total airborne time is 6 hr 22 min of allowed 8 hr. Average airborne time for the completed sorties is 2 hr 7 min which is greater than the remaining allowed airborne time. Because of this the aircraft needs to stand down."

Also if this helps there are 16x H160M Guepard helicopters on the Tonnerre Group at sea.

[decaf]

Dear FifthDomain, I appreciate you taking the effort to look at this
with a fresh run (instead of my save game). However, it is not clear
whether your log message was issued when you landed, or was issued
after you tried to take off again. There is no screen shot provided
that helps here.

In my case, the instant the transport completes the landing sequence it
goes to a 4 hr ready time, without me assigning any mission whatsoever.
I invite you to try my save game. Below is a screen shot showing the
begining of "Completed landing" for #1. Note the sortie count of 2/4
and the accumulated flight time (AFT) of 5 hr 35 min. This shows my
average sortie duration (since I did 3 sorties) is just under 112 min,
or 1 hr 52 min.

screen1b.png (1.29 MiB) Viewed 424 times

The next screen shot (at 07:49:45Z -- about 90 sec later) shows #1
transitioned into "Readying" with a time of 4 hours (clocked down to
3 hr 58 min). Note that no mission is assigned. Note that there is
no message issued in the Message Log. I am getting this quick turnaround
bug without any notification as to why.

screen2b.png (1.29 MiB) Viewed 424 times

By the way, note that my 3 sortie accumulated flight time (AFT) of
5 hr 35 min is much less than your AFT of 6 hr 22 min. This is likely
because I ran my evac missions at Military speed instead of Cruise.
I estimate that total AFT should not exceed 8 hr at Military. (There is
some margin in this, since the transports orbit in a landing pattern.)

>> "Also if this helps there are 16x H160M Guepard helicopters on the Tonnerre Group at sea."

I also appreciate your suggestion to use helos, but I feel there is
a legitimate bug here. Also, the use of the helos is insufficient
to complete the evac with helo/transport in a single forward/back evac.
This is because the 500 citizens are chunked into 10-citizen groups.
So, even though the a single Guepard can carry 12 passengers, they
can only carry a single 10-citizen group. This is 160 citizens total.
Unfortunately, there are still 170 citizens to evacuate at Massenya.
This, in turn, is because the transports can carry 116 passengers,
but only 11 sets of 10-citizen groups (110 citizens total). The
current design of the scenario mandates that some transport has to
make a return trip to the short runway at Massenya.

(If one of the 10-citizen groups were divided into 5 2-citizen groups,
or if 11-citizen groups were used instead, then helo support would
become highly attractive.)

I appreciate you mentioning the Message Log, but I don't get a message.
Thanks for the input!

[FifthDomain]

I use a combination of helos and fixed wing aircraft for the rescue i even bring the marines and tanks home which requires an aircraft refit for cargo. By my calculations you can bring in one 330 civilians on the atlases and 160 in the H160m's in one trip without any return trips if you want you can split thee last 10 and bring them back in the same run or just bring them back with the marines and ERC-90's.

From logs using your save just after they landed and taxied to park:

"08/06/2027 07:48:42 - [France] ET 3/61e Poitou #1 (A.400M Atlas [Grizzly]) has flown 2 of 4 sorties. Total airborne time is 5 hr 35 min of allowed 8 hr. Average airborne time for the completed sorties is 2 hr 47 min which is greater than the remaining allowed airborne time. Because of this the aircraft needs to stand down."

"08/06/2027 07:52:23 - [France] ET 3/61e Poitou #3 (A.400M Atlas [Grizzly]) has flown 2 of 4 sorties. Total airborne time is 5 hr 41 min of allowed 8 hr. Average airborne time for the completed sorties is 2 hr 50 min which is greater than the remaining allowed airborne time. Because of this the aircraft needs to stand down."

"08/06/2027 07:55:52 - [France] ET 3/61e Poitou #2 (A.400M Atlas [Grizzly]) has flown 2 of 4 sorties. Total airborne time is 5 hr 49 min of allowed 8 hr. Average airborne time for the completed sorties is 2 hr 54 min which is greater than the remaining allowed airborne time. Because of this the aircraft needs to stand down."

It not just flight time there is loading and unloading as well i assume they are also taken into account for flight time. I think the clock starts as soon as take-off starts and doesn't stop in between. I don't think there is a bug, but i'm sure a Dev can confirm. I've not timed the flights to see if the times are correct but it seems about right.

EDIT: I've added the logs as well as there was an Exception: Error in satellite data, i think this actually relates to the satellite pass though.

CMO Test File 54.zip

(25.28 KiB) Downloaded 9 times

[decaf]

Dear Devs,

With the assistance of FifthDomain, I have isolated the bug in quick turnaround.

He told me there were logs besides the Message Log. With that clue I looked
and enabled Air Operations logging in the Game Options. Now I see the
log messages associated with the quick turnaround invalidation. This has
isolated the bug.

- - -

6/8/2027 7:48:42 AM: ET 3/61e Poitou #1 (A.400M Atlas [Grizzly]) has flown 2 of 4 sorties. Total airborne time is 5 hr 35 min of allowed 8 hr. Average airborne time for the completed sorties is 2 hr 47 min which is greater than the remaining allowed airborne time. Because of this the aircraft needs to stand down.

6/8/2027 7:52:23 AM: ET 3/61e Poitou #3 (A.400M Atlas [Grizzly]) has flown 2 of 4 sorties. Total airborne time is 5 hr 41 min of allowed 8 hr. Average airborne time for the completed sorties is 2 hr 50 min which is greater than the remaining allowed airborne time. Because of this the aircraft needs to stand down.

6/8/2027 7:55:52 AM: ET 3/61e Poitou #2 (A.400M Atlas [Grizzly]) has flown 2 of 4 sorties. Total airborne time is 5 hr 49 min of allowed 8 hr. Average airborne time for the completed sorties is 2 hr 54 min which is greater than the remaining allowed airborne time. Because of this the aircraft needs to stand down.

- - -

The total airborne time (TAT) appears to be perfectly valid.
But, the sortie count is incorrect. It must be 3 sorties, not 2.
Since the sorties are incorrectly counted, the average airborne time (AAT)
is incorrectly computed. Since the AAT is misfigured, the projected
TAT (PTAT) for Sortie 4 is wrong.

The flight sequence is:
Sortie 1, depart Libreville about 01:35Z, arrive Massenya about 03:26Z (quick turnaround)
Sortie 2, depart Massenya about 03:46Z, arrive Libreville about 05:40Z (quick turnaround)
Sortie 3, depart Libreville about 05:57Z, arrive Massenya about 07:49Z (problem with PTAT)

The average airborne times (AAT) should be:
Poitou #1 AAT = 5 hr 35 min / 3 sorties = 1 hr 51.7 min (not 2 hr 47 min)
Poitou #3 AAT = 5 hr 41 min / 3 sorties = 1 hr 53.7 min (not 2 hr 50 min)
Poitou #2 AAT = 5 hr 49 min / 3 sorties = 1 hr 56.3 min (not 2 hr 54 min)

(note the incorrect AATs are computed with 2 sorties)

The projected total airborne times (PTAT) should be:
Poitou #1 PTAT = 5 hr 35 min + 1 hr 51.7 min = 7 hr 26.7 min
Poitou #3 PTAT = 5 hr 41 min + 1 hr 53.7 min = 7 hr 34.7 min
Poitou #2 PTAT = 5 hr 49 min + 1 hr 56.3 min = 7 hr 45.3 min

None of the correct PTATs violate the 8 hr airborne time limit, and
those 3 flights should be allowed another quick turnaround.

FifthDomain has suggested that the TAT in the messages above also
includes non-airborne time, which would correlate with game time.
I see no evidence of this. The times expressed in the flight sequence
above are from the game time clock, and do not include taxiing,
loading, or unloading.

I do believe that Build 1328.10a does increment the sortie count.
However, the sortie increment has to be done before the average
airborne time (AAT) computation is performed. Ideally, it should be done
before the "Completing landing" message is displayed in the Air Ops
window. This message displays the sortie number (good or bad), and
is displayed before the AAT computation is performed.

I note in passing that it is an assumption that the next sortie
of a quick turnaround flight will have the same flight duration
as the average of the prior sorties. An alternative would be
to simply put 8 hours as a cap on total airborne time (TAT),
and avoid any projections of TAT. Just a thought.

I suspect its currently possible to fly 5 sorties between
2 nearby airfields with quick turnaround because of this bug,
but I haven't tried it.

[blu3s]

Thanks for the detailed report

Logged 0015363

[decaf]

Dear Devs,

I've done some tests, and the sortie counter issue is an edge case caused
by user interaction with the General Doctrine setting. A zip file with a
scenario, Ferry Ops2.scen, and 9 save games (HI-0a thru i) is attached.

The scenario simulates Hawaiian Airlines "island hopping" operations.
In this case, two airfields are about 88 nm apart:
HOME - 21°19′07″N 157°55′21″W (Honolulu, Oahu) HNL
AWAY - 20°53′55″N 156°25′50″W (Kahului, Maui) OGG

These are serviced by a pair of ferry missions:
EVACin -- depart HOME, arrive AWAY
EVACout -- depart AWAY, arrive HOME

A Boeing 737-700C, designation Googol #1, will perform high tempo ops.

In the HI-0 test series, 5 sorties are flown:
Sortie 1, depart HOME about 1829Z, arrive AWAY about 1852Z
Sortie 2, depart AWAY about 1858Z, arrive HOME about 1920Z
Sortie 3, depart HOME about 2027Z, arrive AWAY about 2051Z
Sortie 4, depart AWAY about 2156Z, arrive HOME about 2219Z
Sortie 5, depart HOME about 2324Z, arrive AWAY about 2347Z

During this series, the sortie counter cycles from 0/4 to 4/4, allowing an
impossible total of 5 actual sorties before a mandatory 4 hr downtime. Of
particular note is that the ground time between Sorties 1 and 2 is a mere 6 minutes.

This series captures the case where a user (me in this case) did not correctly
designate Quick Turnaround (QT) for all air operations (including cargo/passengers).
When Googol #1 lands at AWAY, and is taxiing to the parking spot, the user sees
QT is not enabled, and enables it at 1854Z (still in taxi mode). This yields
the impossible result of: 0/4 sorties, 23m46s/8hr. That is, no sorties, but
23m46s of total airborne time (TAT) after landing.

(Narration resumes after the flight digest)

Ferry Ops2 -- 1328.10a
HI-0 series ==============================
mission EVACin to AWAY, cruise
mission EVACout to HOME, cruise
1826Z--save game: HI-0a.save
1826Z--HOME - quick disabled
1829Z--HOME takeoff
1852Z--AWAY touchdown
--"Completing landing" quick disabled
1853Z--Taxiing
--save game: HI-0b.save
1854Z--AWAY--Taxiing to parking spot
1854Z--AWAY--Air Ops > Doctrine > Quick > Yes
--AWAY--check Enable Quick box (4 Sorties Max)
--0/4 sorties, 23m46s/8hr
--save game: HI-0c.save
1855Z--Parked, Ready <----- no 1 hr turnaround ---<<<
--save game: HI-0d.save
--assign to EVACout ferry mission
--set EVACout to Doctrine > Quick > Yes
--AWAY--Air Ops > Launch individually
1855Z--Taxiing to take off <----- no 1 hr turnaround ---
--save game: HI-0e.save
1858Z--AWAY takeoff
1920Z--confirm Googol #1 (airborne) quick turnaround: Yes
--HOME--Air Ops--check Enable Quick box
1920Z--HOME touchdown
--"Completing landing" confirm quick enabled
--1/4 sorties, 46m9s/8hr
1921Z--Taxiing
--save game: HI-0f.save
1923Z--Readying, 1 hr time to ready
2024Z--Parked, Ready
--assign to EVACin ferry mission
--set EVACin to Doctrine > Quick > Yes
--save game: HI-0g.save
2025Z--HOME--Air Ops > Launch individually
2027Z--HOME takeoff
2051Z--AWAY touchdown
--"Completing landing" confirm quick enabled
--2/4 sorties, 1h9m/8hr
2054Z--Readying, 1 hr time to ready
--assign to EVACout ferry mission
2154Z--AWAY--Air Ops > Launch individually
2156Z--AWAY takeoff
2219Z--HOME touchdown
--3/4 sorties, 1h32m/8hr
2221Z--Readying, 1 hr time to ready
2222Z--assign to EVACin ferry mission
2321Z--Parked, Ready
--save game: HI-0h.save
2321Z--HOME--Air Ops > Launch individually
2324Z--HOME takeoff
2347Z--AWAY touchdown
--"Completing landing" confirm quick enabled
--4/4 sorties, 1h56m/8hr, 4 hr downtime
2350Z--Readying, 4 hr time to ready
--0/4 sorties, 0/8hr
--save game: HI-0i.save

(Narration resumes)

In addition to the slow initialization of the sortie counter, an additional
side effect occurs. Googol #1 avoids the 1 hr QT at 1855Z, and has a mere
6 min ground time at AWAY.

When I did my first quick ferry operations, I thought it was WAD; but now
I see that QT should be 1 hour (as stated in the Air Ops GUI). I do not
know if the sortie counter issue is causing the instant QT, or if they are
both directly caused by the "last second" application of QT doctrine.
These two issues are edge cases caused by user interaction with QT doctrine.

I did not stress test this series, to see if multiple setting/resetting of
QT doctrine could further postpone 4 hr standdown, or, even worse, avoid
any 1 hr quick ready times whatsoever.

Two possible solutions come to mind. One is prohibit QT from being set
or reset for an A/C until it is Parked and Ready. In this case an
informational box on the situation could be displayed.

The other is to have the sortie counter be a variable in the instance of
an aircraft (as is flight time), rather than a variable in the instance of
Quick Turnaround. This may or may not address the "no 1 hr turnaround"
bug, since I don't know the mechanics of why that issue arises.

Hope this helps some.

Hawaii.zip

(93.71 KiB) Downloaded 8 times