TRP - Total Realism Project for War in Europe (1.10b Download)

[gigiduru]

I really don't understand the hate against subs. This mod is very long and during the dead periods of the war it's actually worth doing some sub hunting. Removing this from the game doesn't serve a purpose.

As the allies you already don't really need to upgrade your navy. You have sufficient ships to take even 2:1 trades. Once the US gets into the war you get even more cannon fodder and if you are at least decent in the game there is no chance you'll get wiped out by the KM or RM. If the subs get removed then the ally players just need to park their ships in a wall around the North Sea and covering West France and then just let them sleep.

Also i don't find relevant comparing what really happened in WW2 with the game. People aren't playing it to re-eneact history and loose as Germany. If things should be as in reality then Germany has 0 chance industry wise and manpower wise to do anything. But it is a wargame and there needs to be a balance.

I do agree that the sub balance is not achieved yet BUT it is getting there fast. On a scale of 0 to 10 (where 0 si allied bias and 10 is axis bias) i would say that the subs in 1.4 are at 6/10.

Axis Bias:
1. Multiple long and all over the map convoy routes. Not very realistic but it's fun for both allies and axis to play hide and seek. Axis player can also sneak out surface raiders and that forces the allied player to also send out some surface combat ships (CA/CC) - NOTE: YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEND AS MANY SHIPS AS POSSIBLE HUNTING SUBS. Even if you don't attack with them once you found the sub take advantage of ZoC and surround the sub from 3/4 hexes away.
2. That 40% dive chance
3. Spanish ports and allies taking dmg if they get too close (or just make a HR that you aren't allowed to bomb the port)
4. ZoC 10

Allied Bias:
1. The immense number of ships that you start with and the constant DD reinforcement you receive. Combine that with navy bombers (that you can put on your islands in the pacific and monitor convoy lanes) and you have a lot of tools at your disposal.
2. Once US joins your number of ships doubles. You should have at least 3/4 DD patrolling every shipping lane and 5/6 doing the Canada/US one so he can't touch it ever again.

This is just out of the top of my head but there is much more to discuss.

What i proposed to Lothos in order to bring balance (to the force) are the following
1. Reduce ZoC for subs from 10 to 7 (or 5?);
2. OR give out ASW 1 researched for the brits at the beginning of the war. You could say that they should have some experience with it since they know what Germany was up to in WW1. Also it would play into how subs really behaved. I think the problem of most players is that when you actually get to hit the sub (after you find him, can aproach because of the ZoC and he doesn't dive) then you do only a measly 1 dmg. The only unit in the game that does 2 dmg in the beginning is the CV. With ASW 1 researched then UK can start upgrading it's DD (if they want//have the MPP) and then when they see the sub and hit it, it will be more deadly for the sub.

[Bobo2025]

I'm not a fan of the naval war but that is a general issue with SC games as a whole. It isn't good, it simulates basically nothing properly and I find minimally engaging with it the best approach both for fun and actual strategy. I actually prefer the mod (which escapes me now) where you strip out all the capital ships and only leave subs and escorts as there was no universe where the Axis could challenge the RN (and certainly not RN+USN later) on the surface.

My biggest issues as I play this mod are:

1. AA Units. I have no idea what is being represented for most nations and this mod expands the pool of these units. The Germans at least had a concept of a Flak Corps, no one else did but those Flak Corps would still be unlikely to be represented at the level of the game and also were basically made up by stripping the AA units from other formations so they were not an additive force. In the case of non-German units their utility as ground combat formations would have been nil and the ability of a German flak corps to operate independently would be minimal. My only sympathy for these units is that air power is so dreadfully overpowered they bring some sort of balance.
2. Artillery - same thing. You had large artillery pools but those would be represented as the Artillery Weapons at the corps level not a standalone artillery unit. If they do exist, these units also should have basically no defense vs land units as it is since once you came to grips with the sort of super heavy artillery these might simulate it was going to be over for those formations.
3. HQ's. This is, again, more of an SC level thing but dear god can we just strip HQ's of their defensive values? I know the HQ is more than just the general and his entourage but these are also not formations that should be able to defend vs a Corps sized attack.

[Lothos]

I just put out a new Release Candidate for TRP Europe v1.4.2 in the discord channel.

This is once again a big update for TRP World with whatever changes their being carried over to Europe

########################
# TRP 1.4.2 Europe RC1
########################

- (New) France can no longer build Tank Destroyer units till June 1st 1940
- (New) France, adjusted their industrial mobilization events to come a little later
- (New) France, lowered their Industrial Modifier from 50 to 40
- (New) Germany, starts with level 1 artillery tech
- (New) USA, delivering aircraft to the UK will give them a Medium Bomber instead of a Tactical Bomber
- (New) USA, delivering aircraft to the UK (if not delivered) USA will get a Maritime Bomber and Medium Bomber (just like the UK)
- (New) Albania, (while Yugoslavia is Neutral) can only support 5 Axis units with supply.
- (New) German, sub names changed and have wolfpack historical names
- (New) UK, destroyer names changed to represent historical escort groups
- (New) Italy, reworked their mobilization

- (OOB) UK, lowered Tactical Bomber max from 4 to 1
- (OOB) UK, increased Medium Bomber max from 2 to 3
- (OOB) UK, replaced starting Tactical bomber with a Medium Bomber
- (OOB) UK, cannot build Tactical Bombers till February, 1941 (they get them by decision)
- (OOB) USA, lowered Tactic Bombers max from 6 to 2
- (OOB) USA, increased Medium Bomber max from 3 to 4

[Lothos]

A new release candidate for 1.4.2 was put out on Discord. Has some major changes to Artillery. Some people will complain about de-entrench but in all honesty Artillery cannot do that! I was in the Army and I specifically did Artillery which works best when the enemy is out in the open. It does not destroy massive fortifications or entrenchments.

This solves some of the major exploits where people would just mass their Artillery on the Maginot line to blow a hole in it withought having to loose anything for it.

########################
# TRP 1.4.2 Europe RC3
########################

- (New) France can no longer build Tank Destroyer units till June 1st 1940
- (New) France, adjusted their industrial mobilization events to come a little later
- (New) France, lowered their Industrial Modifier from 50 to 40
- (New) France, changed level 1 artillery tech to being researched
- (New) USA, delivering aircraft to the UK will give them a Medium Bomber instead of a Tactical Bomber
- (New) USA, delivering aircraft to the UK (if not delivered) USA will get a Maritime Bomber and Medium Bomber (just like the UK)
- (New) Albania, (while Yugoslavia is Neutral) can only support 5 Axis units with supply.
- (New) German, sub names changed and have wolf-pack historical names
- (New) UK, destroyer names changed to represent historical escort groups
- (New) Italy, reworked their mobilization
- (New) Subs, no longer take damage from storms (they loose readiness)
- (New) Subs, prepared attack readiness bonus changed from 0% to 50%
- (New) Subs, ZOC penalty changed from 10 to 7
- (New) Subs, Retreat range changed from 15 to 6
- (New) Subs, Defensive Loss Evasion increased from 5% to 15%
- (New) Storm Damage, for all ships (except Torpedo Boats) lowered from max of 3 to 2
- (New) All Artillery, no longer De-Entrenchs. However, damage was increased.
- (New) Tactical Bombers, no longer get De-Entrech once ground attack tech hits level 2.

- (Map) Hex 160,84 - 159,83 - added forest
- (Map) Hex 162,86 - 162,87 - 162,88 - 163,87 - added hills
- (Map) Add parts of the Saar River near Metz

- (OOB) UK, lowered Tactical Bomber max from 4 to 1
- (OOB) UK, increased Medium Bomber max from 2 to 3
- (OOB) UK, replaced starting Tactical bomber with a Medium Bomber
- (OOB) UK, cannot build Tactical Bombers till February, 1941 (they get them by decision)
- (OOB) USA, lowered Tactic Bombers max from 6 to 2
- (OOB) USA, increased Medium Bomber max from 3 to 4

[Bobo2025]

Questions/Comments

1. I like the change on damage from storms for subs but why don't all vessels take Readiness damage not just subs? Actual, needs to repair type damage, from storms was exceedingly rare and mostly involved Halsey and a typhoon. It feels incongruous that my battleship can take 2 damage from a confrontation with another battleship or an equal amount from a storm while lowering the readiness feels like an entirely likely scenario.
2. Agree on the artillery and planes not de-trenching. There is stunningly little evidence of either doing that during the war - ask any US forces attacking any fortified island how well all that bombardment smashed fortifications and naval guns were far heavier than any field artillery. Both should likely have damage represented by readiness and morale far more than step losses but I feel like the need for air power to kill is baked very deeply into the bones of the system.
I would argue that this makes the separate field artillery units even more "not real". If these units are not some form of super-heavy siege artillery that does de-trench then what are they representing? Rather than have these units their effect should be subsumed by perhaps improving the effect of Artillery Weapons at the corps/division level.
3. Curious to know the decisioning on lowering US strike-aircraft by 33%, the effect of raising medium bombers mitigated by slashing tactical. I would argue that the concept of a "tactical bomber" was so scarce among USAF (A24/A25 and....i cant think of another plane offhand) that the US should have none but increase their fighters by 2 since those effectively functioned as tactical aircraft for the US and that would preserve their ground strike capability.

[Lothos]

Questions/Comments

1. I like the change on damage from storms for subs but why don't all vessels take Readiness damage not just subs? Actual, needs to repair type damage, from storms was exceedingly rare and mostly involved Halsey and a typhoon. It feels incongruous that my battleship can take 2 damage from a confrontation with another battleship or an equal amount from a storm while lowering the readiness feels like an entirely likely scenario.
2. Agree on the artillery and planes not de-trenching. There is stunningly little evidence of either doing that during the war - ask any US forces attacking any fortified island how well all that bombardment smashed fortifications and naval guns were far heavier than any field artillery. Both should likely have damage represented by readiness and morale far more than step losses but I feel like the need for air power to kill is baked very deeply into the bones of the system.
I would argue that this makes the separate field artillery units even more "not real". If these units are not some form of super-heavy siege artillery that does de-trench then what are they representing? Rather than have these units their effect should be subsumed by perhaps improving the effect of Artillery Weapons at the corps/division level.
3. Curious to know the decisioning on lowering US strike-aircraft by 33%, the effect of raising medium bombers mitigated by slashing tactical. I would argue that the concept of a "tactical bomber" was so scarce among USAF (A24/A25 and....i cant think of another plane offhand) that the US should have none but increase their fighters by 2 since those effectively functioned as tactical aircraft for the US and that would preserve their ground strike capability.

1) Changelog only shows what I changed, all ships already loose readiness when hit by a storm and storms can do damage to ships. It was a constant thing where ships were trying to avoid storms. The one time they went through the storm in the Pacific the US fleet took massive damage.

2) Their is no Artillery representation in this game at the CORP or divisional level. The Artillery unit represents the concentration of that. That is why you get so little of them as it was not common to concentrate that much artillery.

3) US built a few (not many) and they certainly had the ability to. They (just like the UK) focused on Medium Bomber production mainly.

[gigiduru]

Have said this to Lothos in DM on Discord but i want to throw my opinion here aswell.

I think that this change to artilery and tac bombers is a very big nerf and a big boost to entrenched positions. Add this to the removal of prepared bonus for infantry and it will be a death sentence to assault anything without medium bombers.

Immo Axis will be the ones to suffer the most since they need to do a lot of assaulting in the first year and they need to do this is a MPP efficient way. Throwing bodies at entrenched positions isn't the german way. Axis only has 5 medium bombers (4 GER/1 ITA). Sure you could use engineers but they are easily killed and they take a very long time to build.

It's your mod and your decisions so do as you please. But think also on the large scale implications. Balance is imporant. You can keep arty and bombers like this but make mediums lvl 2 do 2 detrench. Do smth to counter the nerf as the war progresses.

[Bobo2025]

1) Changelog only shows what I changed, all ships already loose readiness when hit by a storm and storms can do damage to ships. It was a constant thing where ships were trying to avoid storms. The one time they went through the storm in the Pacific the US fleet took massive damage.

2) Their is no Artillery representation in this game at the CORP or divisional level. The Artillery unit represents the concentration of that. That is why you get so little of them as it was not common to concentrate that much artillery.

3) US built a few (not many) and they certainly had the ability to. They (just like the UK) focused on Medium Bomber production mainly.

1. Ships wanted to avoid storms, clearly but Halsey's Typhoon was a rare event and also the result of some, frankly, epic stupidity. I can't recall other damage as opposed to readiness issues from storms an anything above a DD.
2. I forgot, there is at the Tank Corps but not infantry for...reasons. Well the reason is they need a place to have AT weapons since they arent subsumed under INF Weapons which is a whole other discussion.
3. Agree, and I guess from a "what if..." standpoint the USAF ordering a ton of A-24's is a potential scenario.

BTW, not to bury the lede but I enjoy the mod. Thanks for all your hard work.

[Lothos]

It just hit me and I am discussing this with people in Discord, but I think I found a way to decouple Supply from MPP

If what I am seing in the editor is correct

I could make it so settlements Towns and Cities provide NO MPP

I then rename Major city to Industrial Center and those points would provide MPP.

I can then increase max strength for Towns/Cities etc... so that supply levels go up around the world.

If this idea works I can then turn back on AA building but only for the Industrial Center since these are the points that would provide you MPP.

So if you bomb other places other than these centers you are just hitting supply depots and not MPP.

The other cool part about this change is more cities/towns etc... could be added to the map and it would not distort balancing since they would not increase MPP.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I think that this change to artilery and tac bombers is a very big nerf and a big boost to entrenched positions. Add this to the removal of prepared bonus for infantry and it will be a death sentence to assault anything without medium bombers.

Immo Axis will be the ones to suffer the most since they need to do a lot of assaulting in the first year and they need to do this is a MPP efficient way. Throwing bodies at entrenched positions isn't the german way. Axis only has 5 medium bombers (4 GER/1 ITA). Sure you could use engineers but they are easily killed and they take a very long time to build.

Exactly my and others thoughts on these two particular changes: Arty and Tac Bombers GAt2+ can't de-trench.

Other (recent) changes with this mod are great...but not the 2 named above. Don't want to argue about this but glad you posted this observation @gigiduru.

[Lothos]

I think that this change to artilery and tac bombers is a very big nerf and a big boost to entrenched positions. Add this to the removal of prepared bonus for infantry and it will be a death sentence to assault anything without medium bombers.

Immo Axis will be the ones to suffer the most since they need to do a lot of assaulting in the first year and they need to do this is a MPP efficient way. Throwing bodies at entrenched positions isn't the german way. Axis only has 5 medium bombers (4 GER/1 ITA). Sure you could use engineers but they are easily killed and they take a very long time to build.

Exactly my and others thoughts on these two particular changes: Arty and Tac Bombers GAt2+ can't de-trench.

Other (recent) changes with this mod are great...but not the 2 named above. Don't want to argue about this but glad you posted this observation @gigiduru.

The Tac being able to detrench at 1 when they hit Level 2 ground tech was actually a bug. If I leave the bug when they hit level 4 they can de-entrench 2. This then makes Medium Bombers pointless as Tac are better then.

The bug was fixed, medium bombers are suppose to have less damage, longer range but can de-entrench. Tactical Bombers have more damage, shorter range but can't de-entrench.

Artillery, they do damage now at Level 0 (they really did not before) and do more damage at Level 1. So instead of just occasionally doing 1 damage but always guaranteed to de-entrench it is now doing more damage and never de-entrenches.

Artillery does not destroy defenses in that fashion. But you can still achieve almost the same results by focusing the artillery on a single unit. You will also see counter batteries do actual damage.

Artillery is called the King of battle because more casualties are caused by Artillery than any other military device. They hit troops that are out in the open and moving. That is what they do!

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I think that this change to artilery and tac bombers is a very big nerf and a big boost to entrenched positions. Add this to the removal of prepared bonus for infantry and it will be a death sentence to assault anything without medium bombers.

Immo Axis will be the ones to suffer the most since they need to do a lot of assaulting in the first year and they need to do this is a MPP efficient way. Throwing bodies at entrenched positions isn't the german way. Axis only has 5 medium bombers (4 GER/1 ITA). Sure you could use engineers but they are easily killed and they take a very long time to build.

Exactly my and others thoughts on these two particular changes: Arty and Tac Bombers GAt2+ can't de-trench.

Other (recent) changes with this mod are great...but not the 2 named above. Don't want to argue about this but glad you posted this observation @gigiduru.

The Tac being able to detrench at 1 when they hit Level 2 ground tech was actually a bug. If I leave the bug when they hit level 4 they can de-entrench 2. This then makes Medium Bombers pointless as Tac are better then.

The bug was fixed, medium bombers are suppose to have less damage, longer range but can de-entrench. Tactical Bombers have more damage, shorter range but can't de-entrench.

Artillery, they do damage now at Level 0 (they really did not before) and do more damage at Level 1. So instead of just occasionally doing 1 damage but always guaranteed to de-entrench it is now doing more damage and never de-entrenches.

Artillery does not destroy defenses in that fashion. But you can still achieve almost the same results by focusing the artillery on a single unit. You will also see counter batteries do actual damage.

Artillery is called the King of battle because more casualties are caused by Artillery than any other military device. They hit troops that are out in the open and moving. That is what they do!

Ok thanks for the explanations.

[Taxman66]

Set TAC to start with 0 deentrenchment at level 0
Increase by .25 per level:
Tech 0 = 0
Tech 1 = .25 rounds to 0
Tech 2 = .5 rounds to 1
Tech 3 = .75 rounds to 1
Tech 4 = 1

If drop fraction instead of rounding then set base to .5 and will achieve the same results.

[Lothos]

Set TAC to start with 0 deentrenchment at level 0
Increase by .25 per level:
Tech 0 = 0
Tech 1 = .25 rounds to 0
Tech 2 = .5 rounds to 1
Tech 3 = .75 rounds to 1
Tech 4 = 1

If drop fraction instead of rounding then set base to .5 and will achieve the same results.

Unfortunately not possible, the editor only allows either .5 or 1 and this still ends up making a plane that is better than Medium Bombers and cheaper which it should not be.

[Taxman66]

For the record,
1) I wouldn't consider deentrenchment the destruction of fortifications, as doing such doesn't eliminate them (max entrenchment value stays the same); but rather as supressing the defenders so as to not be able to fully utilize them. Defenders get to increase their level at the end of the turn, and if in big fortifications get multiple points (at least if coming from 0... eng built forts, units get 2 points as soon as they move in to them, and the super forts they start with even more).

2) I also presume you can't set the TAC to start at a negative value either (that could also potentially work around the issue).

3) You haven't mentioned Fighters with ground attack. If you remove deentrenchment from them, then there is absolutely no reason to purchase that upgrade for them as they are too weak to do anything to any ground unit.

4) Just an fyi, but from experience no one is reaching ground attack level 4 until 1944, maybe GE might but they would have to give it first priority, and without TAC getting deentrenchment there isn't much reason too give it such a high priorty.

[SIPRES]

Hi Lothos,
Just to let you know I did add custom ressource files in the same link where the counters are.
I sent you a PM but it seems to be stucked in my outbox..

[Lothos]

Hi Lothos,
Just to let you know I did add custom ressource files in the same link where the counters are.
I sent you a PM but it seems to be stucked in my outbox..

Can you PM me the link please?

[Lothos]

TRP Europe v1.4.2 has been released, lots of changes to subs, more changes to Afrika Corp arrival and lots of balance changes.

########################
# TRP 1.4.2 Europe
########################

- (New) France can no longer build Tank Destroyer units till June 1st 1940
- (New) France, adjusted their industrial mobilization events to come a little later
- (New) France, lowered their Industrial Modifier from 50 to 40
- (New) France, changed level 1 artillery tech to being researched
- (New) USA, delivering aircraft to the UK will give them a Medium Bomber instead of a Tactical Bomber
- (New) USA, delivering aircraft to the UK (if not delivered) USA will get a Maritime Bomber and Medium Bomber (just like the UK)
- (New) Albania, (while Yugoslavia is Neutral) can only support 5 Axis units with supply.
- (New) German, sub names changed and have wolf-pack historical names
- (New) UK, destroyer names changed to represent historical escort groups
- (New) Italy, reworked their mobilization
- (New) Subs, no longer take damage from storms (they loose readiness)
- (New) Subs, prepared attack readiness bonus changed from 0% to 50%
- (New) Subs, ZOC penalty changed from 10 to 7
- (New) Subs, Retreat range changed from 15 to 6
- (New) Subs, Defensive Loss Evasion increased from 5% to 15%
- (New) Subs, Dive Percentage lowered from 40% to 20%
- (New) Subs, Retreat percentage lowered from 50% to 20%
- (New) Subs, Are now reformable at 50% cost and 50% time
- (New) Storm Damage, for all ships (except Torpedo Boats) lowered from max of 3 to 2
- (New) All Artillery, no longer De-Entrenchs. However, damage was increased.
- (New) Tactical Bombers, no longer get De-Entrech once ground attack tech hits level 2.
- (New) Fighters & Tactical Bombers, no longer get De-Entrech.
- (New) Strategic Bombers, can now de-entrech.
- (New) UK, Decision 180 for invading Norway removed. UK can do it on their own and does not need a decision for it.
- (New) Germany, Decision to invade Norway will happen immediately if you say yes which is on 4/9/1940
- (New) Yugoslavia, has a 15 percent chance per turn to join the Allies if the UK has 4 CORPs or more in Greece.
- (New) USSR, starting in 1942 if still neutral they will have a 20% chance of their mobilization going up 1%-2% each turn
- (New) Germany, if Allies DOW Norway then Germany will get the Lutzow
- (New) USSR, Decision giving USSR 3 Anti-Tank units has been removed (build them if you want them)
- (New) Vichy, made some small adjustments to the conditions for Germany to get the decision to collapse them
- (New) Afrika Corp formation changed in the following ways
--- Condition based adjusted so it can't be manipulated as much but the Allies
--- Units all come full strength
--- Cost changed to 900MPPs over 9 turns
--- Artillery Replaced with Mechanized Division
--- Human Player - they show up in Southern Italy (you need to transport them)
--- AI Player - they show up in Africa

- (Map) Hex 160,84 - 159,83 - added forest
- (Map) Hex 162,86 - 162,87 - 162,88 - 163,87 - added hills
- (Map) Added parts of the Saar River near Metz

- (OOB) UK, lowered Tactical Bomber max from 4 to 1
- (OOB) UK, increased Medium Bomber max from 2 to 3
- (OOB) UK, replaced starting Tactical bomber with a Medium Bomber
- (OOB) UK, cannot build Tactical Bombers till February, 1941 (they get them by decision)
- (OOB) USA, lowered Tactic Bombers max from 6 to 2
- (OOB) USA, increased Medium Bomber max from 3 to 4
- (OOB) UK, can no longer build Tank Destroyers, Armor Corps till January, 1940

- (Bug) Popup that hex 156,80 (Eben Emael) fixed so it will display now when Germany invades the Low Countries
- (Bug) Germany, fixed an issue that if you launched a 42 Barb you would get the Vulkstrum decision
- (Bug) Germany, fixed an issue where decision for Spain to join Axis when Gibraltar was taken was not executing
- (Bug) USA, Resolved an issue that if Germany did not invade Russia in 1941 but chose a different path that some of their resources would not get turned on
--- Note these resources get turned on 8/1/1941 no matter what unless some in game conditions are met

[Taxman66]

There's so much I like...
But the changes I don't like are too much to overlook.

Im out.

[Lothos]

There's so much I like...
But the changes I don't like are too much to overlook.

Im out.

Umm ok, this has been tested in MP by me personally and they work just fine. People always say they are out just like when they complained about the Action Points being lowered.

Your call, can't twist your arm to play the mod. I do this for free and play a ridiculous amount of hours on the game.