Latest patch notes / impressions of the new DLC?

[rvseydlitz]

Matrix doesn't release patches...they are just the "store" ...warfare sims is the developer that releases patches and content...
For many of us Matrix is not even the store...just the forum here as my product was bought through Steam.

[thewood1]

"Enable presets on Flight plan Waypoints"

Don't underestimate how powerful this change is by itself and when combined with the Ops Planner. You can automate all kinds of things with the mission editor like WRAs, tanking, emcon, etc. based on location or mission status. And not a lick of lua needed. In the scenario editor, its even more powerful when done within the event manager.

[rvseydlitz]

Historical kill rates for SAMs vs maneuvering aircraft of the SAMs same generation is only Around 3%
I never saw it as a issue that those systems were made more realistic in game...1shot 1 kill is a sniper thing not a SAM thing...I'm a bit disappointed that there is an effort to make SAMs back into super weapons again.

[thewood1]

Well, they definitely haven't done that. It still takes about 30 S-300 shots to kill a maneuvering fighter starting at max range. But the fighters no longer turn on a dime and outrun the missile.

[Dimitris]

I'm a bit disappointed that there is an effort to make SAMs back into super weapons again.

There is no such effort.

[thewood1]

Its called hyperbole.

[rvseydlitz]

Its called hyperbole.

Not an effort on the part of you devs. An effort on the part of some players who complain that "my SAMs don't work because I shot at a (highly maneuvering) target and it evaded me".

[ClaudeJ]

"Enable presets on Flight plan Waypoints"

Don't underestimate how powerful this change is by itself and when combined with the Ops Planner. You can automate all kinds of things with the mission editor like WRAs, tanking, emcon, etc. based on location or mission status. And not a lick of lua needed. In the scenario editor, its even more powerful when done within the event manager.

Hey TheWood,

could you elaborate on that ? I'm intrigued.

[thewood1]

Not sure what I can elaborate on. Before there were very wonky ways to force different ROE settings on flight plans through the flight plan editor. And they didn't all work as expected. With the changes, you can go straight to the waypoint in the flight plan and change all ROEs. I haven't tested all iterations, but being able to change tanking, WRA, emcon, BVR actions, withdrawal, and anything else in the ROE/WRA. Not only that, but ROE settings in regular waypoints are very underutilized and underappreciated. But being able to do it with flight plans is the next level in hands off missions.

Thats the good. The bad is that you can't generate flight plans for dynamic units because the flight plan is based on the unit, not the mission. That means that is a mission has dynamic units, you still have to intervene on flight plans to make sure they work. One thing that is left for me to be satisfied is for the formation adjustment to be implemented in the flight plan editor. The whole flight plan editor table probably needs a clean up for features that work and don't work.

edit: another thing it lets you do is shift target priority at each waypoint in a strike. You can have a lot of targets and reprioritize them as the aircraft move along the waypoints. This lets you make sure certain groups of targets get hit and destroyed before moving on to the next or to just release one weapon on a specific target and then move on to the next. This is all theory. I haven't tried that yet. There are a lot of dependencies. Especially with how you space the waypoints relative to the turning capabilities of the aircraft.

Clarification: Dynamic units can still have flight plans, but they don't get them until assigned to a mission. So that mission's flight plans can't be adjusted until the units are available and assigned. I think they might not get generated until the mission is active also.

[rvseydlitz]

Not sure what I can elaborate on. Before there were very wonky ways to force different ROE settings on flight plans through the flight plan editor. And they didn't all work as expected. With the changes, you can go straight to the waypoint in the flight plan and change all ROEs. I haven't tested all iterations, but being able to change tanking, WRA, emcon, BVR actions, withdrawal, and anything else in the ROE/WRA. Not only that, but ROE settings in regular waypoints are very underutilized and underappreciated. But being able to do it with flight plans is the next level in hands off missions.

Thats the good. The bad is that you can't generate flight plans for dynamic units because the flight plan is based on the unit, not the mission. That means that is a mission has dynamic units, you still have to intervene on flight plans to make sure they work. One thing that is left for me to be satisfied is for the formation adjustment to be implemented in the flight plan editor. The whole flight plan editor table probably needs a clean up for features that work and don't work.

edit: another thing it lets you do is shift target priority at each waypoint in a strike. You can have a lot of targets and reprioritize them as the aircraft move along the waypoints. This lets you make sure certain groups of targets get hit and destroyed before moving on to the next or to just release one weapon on a specific target and then move on to the next. This is all theory. I haven't tried that yet. There are a lot of dependencies. Especially with how you space the waypoints relative to the turning capabilities of the aircraft.

This is very awesome. I haven't played around with it much yet but it's definitely one of my plans for the winter.

[ClaudeJ]

Thanks for laying it all out, TheWood. There's a lot to uncover as a returning player.
I'm curious to revisit monster scens with all these new tools!

Cheers

[Horchata]

Historical kill rates for SAMs vs maneuvering aircraft of the SAMs same generation is only Around 3%
I never saw it as a issue that those systems were made more realistic in game...1shot 1 kill is a sniper thing not a SAM thing...I'm a bit disappointed that there is an effort to make SAMs back into super weapons again.

Most of those stats are from the Vietnam era, todays SAM systems are much more dangerous.

Closing in on a late model double digits SAM like the SA-21, SA-27, SA-28 or SA-15e will lead to certain death, although most systems are not modeled properly in-game(see note) - in real life with a skilled crew, and not powered off for the required radar maintenance the manufacturers tests show them as one missile one target systems within the specified kinematic zones. There's a reason the USAF no longer recommends attempting to "dodge" an incoming SAM.
If you look at the crew cab videos of SAM systems engaging non maneuvering targets like cruise missiles its a 1:1 if the operator doesn't do something stupid like shoot within the MEZ.

(all SHORAD is listed as SARH instead of command guided and S-400 is also listed as SARH instead of Command Guided+SAGG terminal homing. S300V uses an even more exotic seeker called GAI however it is also listed as TVM like patriot. This means they function different in real life vs the game)

Well, they definitely haven't done that. It still takes about 30 S-300 shots to kill a maneuvering fighter starting at max range. But the fighters no longer turn on a dime and outrun the missile.

Yep, the key term here is *at max range*, although the devs are apparently changing the lofted trajectories so that it isn't this bad.

On the MFR's page they almost always list the "range versus a maneuvering target", as its much harder than with a large aircraft or a non maneuvering cruise missile.
The S-400 isn't a 400km circle of death like most journalists believe it is, the 40N6 at those ranges is mainly an anti-AWACS/missile carrier/bomber missile. Missile kinematics to engage a maneuvering target at extended range post-booster requires a ramjet sustainer like on the Meteor or the R-77M.

[rvseydlitz]

Historical kill rates for SAMs vs maneuvering aircraft of the SAMs same generation is only Around 3%
I never saw it as a issue that those systems were made more realistic in game...1shot 1 kill is a sniper thing not a SAM thing...I'm a bit disappointed that there is an effort to make SAMs back into super weapons again.

Most of those stats are from the Vietnam era, todays SAM systems are much more dangerous.

Closing in on a late model double digits SAM like the SA-21, SA-27, SA-28 or SA-15e will lead to certain death, although most systems are not modeled properly in-game(see note) - in real life with a skilled crew, and not powered off for the required radar maintenance the manufacturers tests show them as one missile one target systems within the specified kinematic zones. There's a reason the USAF no longer recommends attempting to "dodge" an incoming SAM.
If you look at the crew cab videos of SAM systems engaging non maneuvering targets like cruise missiles its a 1:1 if the operator doesn't do something stupid like shoot within the MEZ.

(all SHORAD is listed as SARH instead of command guided and S-400 is also listed as SARH instead of Command Guided+SAGG terminal homing. S300V uses an even more exotic seeker called GAI however it is also listed as TVM like patriot. This means they function different in real life vs the game)

Well, they definitely haven't done that. It still takes about 30 S-300 shots to kill a maneuvering fighter starting at max range. But the fighters no longer turn on a dime and outrun the missile.

Yep, the key term here is *at max range*, although the devs are apparently changing the lofted trajectories so that it isn't this bad.

On the MFR's page they almost always list the "range versus a maneuvering target", as its much harder than with a large aircraft or a non maneuvering cruise missile.
The S-400 isn't a 400km circle of death like most journalists believe it is, the 40N6 at those ranges is mainly an anti-AWACS/missile carrier/bomber missile. Missile kinematics to engage a maneuvering target at extended range post-booster requires a ramjet sustainer like on the Meteor or the R-77M.

Actually the data has not changed that much. Vietnam has definitely the "most samples" but Israeli action in more modern scenarios has also shown roughly the same as has the war in Ukraine only very slightly better.
Most SAM systems (as you mentioned) are really designed against AWACs or "threats to ground"(bombers or attack) with usually those AWACs and their controlled fighters being the usual preferred "anti-fighter" method.