RFSS unattachable

[dankhippos]

Any particular reason on the RFSS being changed from multi-role to on map only? Hoping this is a bug.

[Great_Ajax]

It is too big of a unit to be support as its nearly 8,500 men strong. Generally, regiments and battalions are support or multi-role and brigades are now generally combat units.

[Beethoven1]

It is too big of a unit to be support as its nearly 8,500 men strong. Generally, regiments and battalions are support or multi-role and brigades are now generally combat units.

"brigades are now generally combat units"

Seems to be an Axis-only thing, because Soviets can certainly attach their rifle brigades and tank brigades.

And in 1941, Soviets can now also attach 7000 man Anti-Tank brigades to mountaineer divisions, which previously could not have anything attached to them at all.

So in other words, it is a major axis nerf.

Was balance considered in this decision? Currently it is possible at least in 1941 for Axis to take more or less any hex if they want to take that particular hex. However, the way Axis could do that was by attaching this sort of support unit which made it possible to concentrate firepower on a single hex. Without that ability for Axis, it is possible there could be some hexes which are simply not possible to take, for example if Soviets can get 3 mountaineers with attached brigades in a single rough terrain hex with a level 3 fort, it may be extremely difficult to impossible for Axis to take it. I don't know if that is the case, it needs testing. But the point is, one would hope that this sort of change would be tested in that sort of way for balance.

Was it?

[Jango32]

Is the Grossdeutschland regiment still a multi-role unit at least? By itself it just melts in combat due to its small size. Without an RFSS brigade attached, it's just better to convert GD into an SU.

[Beethoven1]

Also, I don't think that this change was mentioned in the patch changelog (could be wrong, but don't remember it).

This is probably the single most important change in the patch for balance, so this is certainly the sort of thing that should .

It is definitely more important than knowing that the penetration for the 96 mm Fe8J123bb6-mk1942 anti-ship missile was increased from 97 to 98, and that sort of thing gets mentioned in the changelog

[dankhippos]

Is the Grossdeutschland regiment still a multi-role unit at least? By itself it just melts in combat due to its small size. Without an RFSS brigade attached, it's just better to convert GD into an SU.

GD regiment is not multi-role anymore.

[Beethoven1]

The other point is that one of the main reasons players attach multi-role SUs to divisions is that they take 0 command capacity when attached as SUs, but regiments/brigades take 1 command capacity when they are on map.

So effectively this change is also, at least if players actually use these units on map rather than (more likely) sending them to theater boxes or disbanding them, a large increase in command points. There is already not enough command capacity especially for Axis (but also for Soviets if Soviets put their rifle brigades on map rather than as SUs), because the command capacity for armies and army groups are set ridiculously low so that there is a shortage of command capacity. And this is not something that players can simply ignore, because the rules REQUIRE armies and army groups/fronts to be below capacity for assault fronts to function correctly.

That is something that has 0 basis in actual history as far as I am aware. For example, the actual historical situation is reflected in the start of the StB scenario, where the western front is using 196 command capacity out of 89, which is overloaded not just a little bit in the game, but is overloaded to the point of absurdity:



And yet, historically, the Western Front worked normally like other fronts, despite it being so "overloaded" in the game. This should be a strong hint that the game's command capacity limits are wrong and not reflective of real world historical command capacity, and are too low.

The same is of course true for Axis armies, but they don't even have enough armies given the game's (entirely artificial and not historically grounded) command limits.

Devs should ABSOLUTELY not make this sort of change without even considering the impacts that it has on things like command capacity.

So at the very least, if you are going to make this sort of change, please ALSO change it so that brigade and regiment sized units take 0 command capacity rather than 1 command capacity.

Although a much better solution of course would be simply to raise the absurdly low command capacity limits, especially for Axis armies and fronts, but also to some degree for Soviets, if you want it to be viable for them to use rifle brigades as on-map units.

But whatever you do, please don't keep this change as is without making any sort of compensating adjustment to the (already too low) command capacity limits. And please also consider these sorts of things when making these sorts of changes, if currently they are not being considered.

[dankhippos]

It is too big of a unit to be support as its nearly 8,500 men strong. Generally, regiments and battalions are support or multi-role and brigades are now generally combat units.

Reasons why I am asking for this change to either be removed or reworked

1.change was made an an arbitrary numbers basis.
2.It doesnt effect soviet brigades for some reason.
3.it doesnt take into account the axis will need more command capacity to field them as on map units
4.Axis used to be able to concentrate rfss and panzers/moto to be able to take basically hex in 41' season. This ability has been taken away, not as much purposefully but as an oversight.
5.This affects game balance and its seems like that wasn't noticed or prioritized at all.
6.The real problem of rfss being op was their extremely high morale. Their morale has been nerfed. So there was really no point to double nerf them.
7.for some reason now, soviet mountaineers can have SU. So extremely tough tiles to take that would require RFSS, well now you dont have that option.

[Great_Ajax]

I don't see a handful of unit changes having such a dramatic impact on the game. The Soviet Brigades were made this way for gameplay improvements specifically to address having too many Soviet units on the map so we made those brigades either support units or multi-role.

So, I will leave this to Joel to sort out. If he thinks changes are warranted, I will follow his direction.

Trey

It is too big of a unit to be support as its nearly 8,500 men strong. Generally, regiments and battalions are support or multi-role and brigades are now generally combat units.

Reasons why I am asking for this change to either be removed or reworked

1.change was made an an arbitrary numbers basis.
2.It doesnt effect soviet brigades for some reason.
3.it doesnt take into account the axis will need more command capacity to field them as on map units
4.Axis used to be able to concentrate rfss and panzers/moto to be able to take basically hex in 41' season. This ability has been taken away, not as much purposefully but as an oversight.
5.This affects game balance and its seems like that wasn't noticed or prioritized at all.
6.The real problem of rfss being op was their extremely high morale. Their morale has been nerfed. So there was really no point to double nerf them.
7.for some reason now, soviet mountaineers can have SU. So extremely tough tiles to take that would require RFSS, well now you dont have that option.

[Zebtucker12]

Just having one side have the ability to quickly reinforce anysector with Support units is not very balanced, The removal of many flak units ability to attach to divisons was already a pretty big nerf to germany.

[Beethoven1]

I don't see a handful of unit changes having such a dramatic impact on the game.

They do in fact have a dramatic impact of the game because this is the main way Axis can win difficult battles in high fort levels. Axis attaches these multi-role units in order to concentrate combat power against Soviet units on hexes which have level 3 forts and triple-stacked Soviet unis (where the Soviets if they are playing well will also have multi-role units attached to their divisions). Then after the battle, Axis sends them back to OKH. And then from OKH they can be sent as fire brigades to a critical battle against a hex the Soviets are overstacking the next turn.

And now you will have e.g. 3 full TOE mountaineer divisions with 3 attached AT brigades for the Soviets, so hexes like Perekop or rough hexes in the north on the Luga line can be harder for Axis to break than before in 1941.

Plus it makes the already horrendously bad command capacity situation for Axis even worse.

[Beethoven1]

Just having one side have the ability to quickly reinforce anysector with Support units is not very balanced, The removal of many flak units ability to attach to divisons was already a pretty big nerf to germany.

Yes exactly. With the current situation, Soviets can and will teleport powerful multi-role SUs all over the map every turn, but Axis cannot do the same.