ENG bonus doubled in city attack with Ochit

[Mayhemizer_slith]

5.0.0.10

Attack Lille with all units and double units with Ochit. When you double ENG it doubles city attack bonus.

Terrain & city modifier is -4 (city, 3 printed factories)
+1 ENG
+1 HQ

With Ochit doubling ENG that bonus comes to -1. Doubling HQ does not double bonus. PARA gives +1 and doubling it does not double bonus.

[Courtenay]

Yes, that is RAW. The ENG bonus is based on its attack strength. Double its attack strength, double its bonus. All correct.

[rkr1958]

Yes, that is RAW. The ENG bonus is based on its attack strength. Double its attack strength, double its bonus. All correct.

So let's say you use an ochit to double a 1 strength engineer. Could that engineer be used to undo 1/2 river pentaly for 2 units stacked with him?

[Orm]

So let's say you use an ochit to double a 1 strength engineer. Could that engineer be used to undo 1/2 river pentaly for 2 units stacked with him?

Yes.

[Courtenay]

One thing to remember about the ENG bonus against a city is that the city modifier can never go higher than zero. So two points of ENG plus an HQ against a two factory city gives +0, not +1.

[Mayhemizer_slith]

Thank you all

[Joseignacio]

Yes, that is RAW. The ENG bonus is based on its attack strength. Double its attack strength, double its bonus. All correct.

I am not so sure, Courtenay.

It is true that some of the bonus of the Eng depend on it's factors, but after reading again the RAW, I think that applies only to the number of units which can be affected by them, when crossing a river. Same as you can't get double ARM bonuses with an off chit, unless previously halved by terrain.

Engineer divisions (MiF option 7)
Some engineer divisions (ENGs) are motorised and receive the benefits of being motorised. Some other engineers have the same special abilities as MAR units. You can play engineers as combat and/or construction engineers.

Combat Engineers
Face-up ENG are not halved or thirded when attacking or overrunning across a river, canal or fort hexside. They also provide this benefit to as many land units they are stacked with as the ENG unit’s combat value. ENG attacking across both a river and a fort hexside, ignore only the fort hexside. The defender still has all other combat benefits
if behind a fort hexside.

Engineers provide +1 to the land combat die roll (see 11.16.5) when attacking a 2 or 3 factory stack city. Defending engineers subtract 1 from the die roll when defending a 2 or 3 factory stack city. These benefits are in addition to the other benefits and can be used simultaneously (e.g. gaining both benefits when attacking across a river into a 2 factory city).

As you can see, the combat value of ENG affects the number of units which are not halved, so if duplicated it would help 2 units instead of 1...

... however, it does not say the same when speaking of the bonus against the city, it keeps on being 1, and besides even a 2 factors ENG would still gain only a +1. This has changed in WIF CE (I think) but in WIF FE it was like you can read in my copy.

And, however, I think MWIF is correct if in the total, the PARA is included.

3 factorias + city = -4
1 HQ + 1 Eng +1 PARA = +3

Total =-1

[Orm]

Picture below cut from the 2d10 table included in RAC. I think the wording is pretty clear that it is the number of combat factor that decides the ENG bonus when attacking cities.

0000.jpg (279.9 KiB) Viewed 967 times

[Joseignacio]

Ok, you are right then.

This is a MWIF RAC deviation from RAW.
RAW table reads "+1 per ENG unit attacking a printed factory":

Untitled.png (177.01 KiB) Viewed 962 times

I tend to forget the deviations from WIF rules, because they are so few and usually reasonable.

And so, if the sum of modifyers include the PARA bonus, the sum should be 0, not -1, then. If that bonus is included elsewhere, of course there is no bug.

[Orm]

I tend to forget the deviations from WIF rules, because they are so few and usually reasonable.

I suspect that RAC got this from a version of RAW. RAW has always changed somewhat, and I think that RAC reflect how RAW was in the version that RAC is based upon. I doubt that this was a deviation.

Anyway. I am glad that this issue has been clarified.

[Courtenay]

Even though it was shipped with MWiF, that is an obsolete version of the 2d10 CRT. Note that it has white print SS units as winterized, which is also long gone. The copyright date on that version is 2002. If one goes to the ADG webpage and looks up the World in Flames version 7 rules, one finds that the 2d10 CRT says that "+1 per ENG combat factor attacking a city."

As near as I can tell, this is also the 2d10 table that the Collectors edition uses, but I am not sure about this, because I know very little about the Collectors edition.

[Joseignacio]

Well, it doesnt really matter, since RAC admits differences with RAW, but here is the newer 2017 WIFCE chart, according to one of the Vassal module creators:

Untitled.png (402.06 KiB) Viewed 936 times

[Courtenay]

MWiF is based on WiFFE, not WiFCE.

(And I have never figured out why there is a CE when the previous edition was the FE. )

[Joseignacio]

I know, I was answering to this

As near as I can tell, this is also the 2d10 table that the Collectors edition uses, but I am not sure about this, because I know very little about the Collectors edition.