Escorts flying twice

[Yaab]

Scenario 100, Japs, turn 1.

I have combined all Zeros at Takao into two big units, each with 45 aircraft.

Set one group to sweep Clark Field, while the other group flew escort mission for the level bombers attacking the airfield.

Here is the combat report:
--------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Clark Field , at 79,76

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 45

Allied aircraft
P-26A x 4
P-35A x 5
P-40B Warhawk x 1

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
P-26A: 3 destroyed
P-35A: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
43 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Clark Field , at 79,76

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 101 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 45
G3M2 Nell x 9
G4M1 Betty x 54

Allied aircraft
no flights

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Warhawk: 14 damaged
P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed on ground
B-17D Fortress: 18 damaged
O-47A: 12 damaged
O-47A: 1 destroyed on ground
P-35A: 9 damaged
P-35A: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 13
Runway hits 40

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
9 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
27 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Clark Field , at 79,76

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 94 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 45
G3M2 Nell x 27

Allied aircraft
P-35A x 3
P-40B Warhawk x 3
P-40E Warhawk x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
G3M2 Nell: 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-35A: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
P-40B Warhawk: 2 damaged
P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed on ground
P-40E Warhawk: 4 destroyed

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 10

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

------------------------------------------

Basically, I had one straggler Nell group flying its attack mission in the afternoon. To my surprise, the group was also escorted by the same Zeroes who flew in the morning. Now, I know that fighters will fly escort twice for naval attack missions, but I have never noticed they do the same for ground missions. Went to the pilots screen next turn and saw that the escorting group flew two missons with its pilots accumulating twice the fatigue of the sweep group.

[Yaab]

Some new info.

The straggling Nelly unit was flying from Taichu, which is two hexes away from Takao. At start, Takao has several air HQs in place and Taichu is in their range. I do have a hard time believing that the Zero unit flew the whole Manila-Clark route twice. It seems to me they were just lotering in the air away from Clark Field after the AM phase, waiting for the Nells to arrive, and only then they joined them as escorts.

BTW, during another redo, when weather in Taichu was better than in Takao, all Takao flights were grounded, while the Nells from Taichu proceeded to Clark Field alone, impaling themselves on the CAP fighters. If you have an advanced fighter base ( fighters have shorter range) and a bomber base to the rear, the same thing may happen. It has nothing to do with aitr attack coordination, but weather conditions at different bases. It seems to me you have to put all eggs in one basket - ether all fly, or all are grounded.

[Barb]

Another bit - I think that game has calculation about the plane availability for the afternoon mission. E.G. If the morning mission took too long IIRC(Number of Hexes*40nm/Cruise speed)< 6 hours, the planes would be not available for the afternoon.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Another bit - I think that game has calculation about the plane availability for the afternoon mission. E.G. If the morning mission took too long IIRC(Number of Hexes*40nm/Cruise speed)< 6 hours, the planes would be not available for the afternoon.

No wonder the Oscar IV makes for a great escort with their high cruise speed.

[adarbrauner]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Another bit - I think that game has calculation about the plane availability for the afternoon mission. E.G. If the morning mission took too long IIRC(Number of Hexes*40nm/Cruise speed)< 6 hours, the planes would be not available for the afternoon.

Liked it

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Another bit - I think that game has calculation about the plane availability for the afternoon mission. E.G. If the morning mission took too long IIRC(Number of Hexes*40nm/Cruise speed)< 6 hours, the planes would be not available for the afternoon.

I'm not sure, but the size of the base and amount of air support available may be part of the calculation because they impact turnaround time.

[Yaab]

Takao airfield. Notice the aviation support overkill.





EDIT 10 2023: I have found my missing jpg from 2017 and embedded it again in this post.

[BBfanboy]

Looks like you have enough air support and base size there!
But I did say that might be part of the calculation. I don't know if aggressiveness of the leaders and/or fatigue levels are in the mix. Most times I have seen second strikes all of the squadrons that flew the first strike come back, but with some aircraft missing from damage.
The two biggest factors seem to be short range and luck of the die roll.

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Another bit - I think that game has calculation about the plane availability for the afternoon mission. E.G. If the morning mission took too long IIRC(Number of Hexes*40nm/Cruise speed)< 6 hours, the planes would be not available for the afternoon.

I'm not sure, but the size of the base and amount of air support available may be part of the calculation because they impact turnaround time.

Thread resurrection.

Do you remember this freak happening when ny59giants's Jap bombers flew TWICE from a conquered Clark Field?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2#p4083762

Takao is airfield level 8 and Clark Field is also airfield level 8. if you have 250 aviation support at airfield level 8, then local aviation support is doubled. Can those "escorts flying twice/bombers flying twice" happenings be a undocumented feature of AV doubling at airfields level 8?

EDIT: I have added the missing Takao jpg from 2017.

[Yaab]

Damn, it just dawned on me that aviation support is not decisive as such. What good is ample (twofold, fivefold etc.) aviation support, if you dont have enough PHYSICAL SPACE to taxi all those aircraft for another sortie?

At my Takao I had 1200 aviation support (only 200 needed). 100 aircraft are Zeros (100 engine), the other 100 aircraft are two-engine bombers (200 engines). Takao engine capacity is 400 engines, while my aircraft occupy the space of 300 engines.

Thus, if you could shed my engine count to 200 engines (100 fighters and 50 bombers), in theory there would be enough space and aviation support to launch those 50 bomber and escorting fighters again in afternoon phase.

Thus, in order to launch escort/ground attack twice in a turn you probably need:

-airfield level 8 (maybe level 4-7 is eneough too?)
-double the aviation support needed
-double the engine space needed

I invite enterprising players to test my assumptions.

[BBfanboy]

I seem to recall that pilot experience (averaged for the squadron) might also be a factor. A pilot could coax more speed out of his aircraft during transit if he was able to calculate the trade-off with fuel usage accurately.