Steam Naval Warfare vs Naval Mod

[heliodorus04]

Hello, and thank you for any help you can provide regarding the naval combat in the current default game and also on the Naval Mod included with the original (via purchase on Steam).

I played a lot of War Plan; I'm a veteran of GG: WitE(1); I'm a veteran gamer of World in Flames and others.

I can't understand the utter dominance of the UK in the default naval game, and I'm not sure if I should switch to the Naval Mod yet because I'm only playing vs. the AI, and I've yet to get to an invasion of Russia/war with the US (playing as Axis). I've searched Steam and this forum, but I'm not finding a lot of relevant instructional/informational posts. What I've found is from very old versions.

I've played 80 hours, and I keep re-starting in late 1940 because I'm convinced I'm doing something wrong.

Most recently, I was stunned by the Royal Navy's mass appearance between Denmark and Norway at the spot labelled Skaggarak. My understanding was that the RN wouldn't go this close to Germany for fear of aircraft and sea mines. But a Sub was raiding the Oslo-to-Denmark convoy, I sent two destroyers out and they barely damaged the sub (didn't even force a retreat) and then my ships couldn't move. I thought I had "blocked" the channel so no ships could get behind mine, and thus only two ships could attack, but the RN swarmed me starting from behind as if they used the Kiel Canal. I guess no ZOC from destroyers was the problem? My two destroyers were smashed compared to the sub and I had a WTF moment.

I have similar problems with Italian navies. I thought I would attack the ports on Malta, and I suffer significant BB hits in doing so. Meanwhile a Royal Navy DD bombards Brest without suffering losses to itself: WTF? I have 80 hours of this and I am a veteran wargamer: why is this naval combat systems so difficult to observe and understand? I don't stare start war with the US if I can't figure out how to defeat a lone sub on Skaggarak or off Malta, meanwhile German and Italian ships seem made of balsa wood by comparison.

[Platoonist]

Most recently, I was stunned by the Royal Navy's mass appearance between Denmark and Norway at the spot labelled Skaggarak. My understanding was that the RN wouldn't go this close to Germany for fear of aircraft and sea mines. But a Sub was raiding the Oslo-to-Denmark convoy, I sent two destroyers out and they barely damaged the sub (didn't even force a retreat) and then my ships couldn't move. I thought I had "blocked" the channel so no ships could get behind mine, and thus only two ships could attack, but the RN swarmed me starting from behind as if they used the Kiel Canal. I guess no ZOC from destroyers was the problem? My two destroyers were smashed compared to the sub and I had a WTF moment.

I recall falling into this trap when I first started this game. Unless it's right outside your door you want to see that sub as bait to lure your destroyers out where than can be pummeled by superior numbers, The RN will always have superior numbers in the early going anyway. They are not scared of the Skagerrak either as unlike WarPlan there are no sea mines in the game and no German naval bombers yet in 1940. As the Axis I usually build a naval bomber at some point and base it in Denmark to beat up on any Allied submarines chewing on the convoy line to Norway. It's generally risk-free that way. Enemy ships can also go straight through your ships and hit them from behind if they are willing to take the hit. Generally, not a problem for a battleship vs a destroyer.

As the Euro-Axis you basically want to play a conservative game vs the Allies when it comes to surface navies. They have the numbers and carriers to back up those numbers. They often have the superior naval tech too.

[heliodorus04]

Should I be playing the Naval Mod? For a person like me who has a basic understanding of task force groupings be more comfortable with that mod?

I don't understand why the British navy seems to always know where the Italians or German subs are. How does AI spotting work and why am I clueless about royal navy locations?
The war in the Atlantic doesn't seem to be even close to cost effective for Germany. I can only imagine how badly I will play the IJN versus the USA! I can't even protect the Oslo-to-Denmark convoy and it's three hexes long!

Now does overseas supply work for Malta? Why can't units there be starved, yet somehow they degrade supply to North Africa?

Are there any heuristics for how much MPP each axis power should place toward research per turn? Should I be maxing out research and upgrading units? (I'd be grateful for a a link to a good strategy/mechanics guide, especially for the Naval Mod.) What kind of units does Germany need to keep in the west after France falls? I've fought okay in North Africa through July 41. My invasion into the USSR seems to have been underwhelming. I'm wondering if I'd have been better off without upgrading German units (especially mobility - expensive) and if I over-garrisoned France in 1941.

I enjoy discovering a game, but this one-resource-for-everything leads to me feeling lost of how I should devote those MPPs for the axis powers during 1940 and 1941 (compounded by the fact that the Japanese especially received a massive amount of scheduled reinforcements).

[Platoonist]

Should I be playing the Naval Mod? For a person like me who has a basic understanding of task force groupings be more comfortable with that mod?

I've never used the Naval War Mod. I seem it recall it got its own share of complaints too.

That Norwegian convoy route can never really be fully protected unless you can somehow permanently wipe out a major chunk of the Allied fleet. At some point you get a decision event to run Norwegian iron ore through the more protected Baltic Sea from Sweden at the expense of the Oslo to Bremerhaven route. It takes a MPP loss on winter turns due to ice, but it's probably worth it.

Malta is a secondary supply source on its own, so it doesn't rely on outside supply line. It's basically a fortified town (Valletta) with two ports. The best way to capture Malta is to place a German HQ with as many Axis bombers as you can spare in nearby Sicily and plaster the unit garrisoned there with ground strikes until it is good and dead. Then drop a paratroop in or an amphibious invasion unit. After the Fall of France is generally usually the best time to work on this project. Malta is usually garrisoned with an AA unit so you will take some aerial losses.

This also entails attacking the ports and keeping two naval units next to them, so they limit the ability for the unit at Malta to rebuild its strength. I know that's different from WarPlan where you could just starve Malta out with a naval blockade.

You don't generally have to worry about occupied France until about 1943 if playing the AI. Just some garrison units with maybe 2 corps to keep the partisans down, plus you get some coast defense units at some point if you want them. Air units also count for keeping partisan hexes in check. The British generally don't have ground units to spare for even the tiniest of invasions. Human players, however, do weird and unpredictable things.

[heliodorus04]

Any tips on the benefit of research and upgrades versus simply pumping out more low-tech units?

[Platoonist]

Any tips on the benefit of research and upgrades versus simply pumping out more low-tech units?

You definitely want to do some research. Research not only gives you more powerful and robust units. In certain areas like Industrial and Production technology it can reduce the cost of purchasing and upgrading units and increase your overall MPP output. Without research in the passage of time your low-tech but large army won't have much of an advantage over the enemy's high-tech, even larger army.

[heliodorus04]

It's been quite a balancing act trying to figure out where to spend MMP and when.

Why would someone choose to invest in artillery/rockets in favor of tactical and medium bombers which have far superior range?

With regard to the Japanese initial 6 months, can you help me understand when to have Japanese units board transports, and from where, and which require Long Range is required? Is it possible to hit the East Indies, Singapore, and the Phillipines simultaneously to coincide with a Pearl Harbor?

I can't determine how to know the mobilization of USSR/USA.
(I was also highly irritated at how many 'nations' that Japan has to Declare War on! What's with all these islands being separate DoWs! Does someone like the sound of the click too much?

[Torplexed]

Why would someone choose to invest in artillery/rockets in favor of tactical and medium bombers which have far superior range?

Probably because artillery isn't subject to interception or bad weather, can be used multiple times in a turn and can also fire in defense of units in front of them.

[heliodorus04]

The U-boat aspect of the war seems hopeless for the U-boats. The British have such an abundance of naval units that the entire north Atlantic routes can be covered each turn. I can't see any way for it to be economically viable because most of the time my U-boats are forced into combat (thus, no convoy attack will occur even if the enemy retreats) so I'm spending far too little time engaging in strategic warfare and far too much time trying move subs where the Royal Navy can't be. (Does the AI cheat in regards to sub visibility? He's even finding me when I spend several turns traveling to Liberia).

Between repair costs and research costs, why bother using U-boats in their designed historic role rather than like the Japanese as fleet screens and scouts?

I like the game, but it's frustrating to have a hundred hours in, and even to resort to cheating by playing my turn with FoW off and the AI's turn with FoW on, the naval combat doesn't make much sense to me. I'm managing the air and land. I did successfully take Malta.

I kind of understand the dynamic between air units and naval units; that feels pretty historical. But U-boats can't hide nor can they combat surface vessels in an economically viable way. The one sub that the British used against me was able to raid the Oslo route because I wasn't able to go fight it without paying an unequal cost; when I did try to use my DD to find/attack the sub, aircraft carriers and surface vessels would come spank the German vessels. It was not until I devoted two maritime bombers to Denmark in early 1941 that I was able to stop that non-sense by out-flying the royal navy with my land-based fleet. I even took out my first two navy CVs, which felt well earned and rewarding.

Is the rule book still right that you have to be on or adjacent to a printed convoy route to raid it, and that a sub/vessel that moves will cause less MPP damage than a vessel that remains stationary during its turn? If you have to be that close the convoy route, and a sub can't hide, what am I missing about the strategic warfare between subs and surface vessels? I just can't seem to make it economically viable.

[BillRunacre]

(Does the AI cheat in regards to sub visibility? He's even finding me when I spend several turns traveling to Liberia).

No it doesn't, the AI will strongly patrol the convoy routes, so you will undoubtedly be attacked when doing so.

You may also be interested in this post explaining the bonuses that the AI can receive in game:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=373247

Additionally, note that vessels raiding a convoy route will have their position indicated by a "?" on the map, representing information being reported back that convoys are being attacked, so it does pay to keep moving the raiders around, to make it harder for the sub hunters to find you.

Is the rule book still right that you have to be on or adjacent to a printed convoy route to raid it, and that a sub/vessel that moves will cause less MPP damage than a vessel that remains stationary during its turn?

Yes, the first aspect is correct, however not the second, as MPP damage to a convoy is not affected by whether or not the sub has moved. It is damage in combat that is less if the sub moves before attacking, to represent their greater potency in an ambush role against surface vessels.

[Nginear]

Here is a link to the Steam forum to a strategy guide. It discusses some of your naval questions. Personally I think the naval aspect is the weakest part of the game..... it just comes down to who fires first most of the time, no real tactics.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/957720/d ... 641916792/

[helmseye]

Naval war mod is very good as you have zoc at sea

this will help cover some of your issues I think, also MT boats are more powerful than they appear so I would reccomend playing around with those as well