Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

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tyronec
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by tyronec »

I typically get around 26k freight delivered to the armies every turn (winter included) while on the advance, with an additional 5k being lost. I really don't think it's that much of a "dark art" or something esoteric. You just need to have as many depots as possible to demand more freight with a usual spread of about 5 hexes, and to stock up in the rear while delivering to the front every turn.
I have lots of depots and the rear stocked up. Am not getting 26k a turn, latest turn 18k and the previous one 22k.
I have used a different pattern of rail from my usual this game and it was around this turn I began to realise that it was not working well and was maybe going to be unfixable at least for '41. Live and learn...(or maybe die and learn for the landseers).
I think a screenshot of the logistics phase every turn would be good to see. But it's a server game so that isn't possible anymore for the previous turns.
We are now on T13 and I have not been taking screenshots so that information is not available.
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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tyronec
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by tyronec »

Isn't most of the community on Discord?
I am not active on discord, am told there is an AAR of this game but I am not familiar with how discord is structured or how to find any AARs.
Anyway, but I loaded it up to have a look and there seem to be 5 game requests in 3 full months. But maybe they are somewhere where I don't see them ?
And on the Forum 11 more.
So 16 in total.

Picking a random page for WITE1 there were 30 for 3 months.

On that unscientific measures WITE22 has half the MP interest as WITE1.
On the measure of how many responses I had to a game request it was much worse than that.
.
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
RedJohn
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by RedJohn »

We have our own little insular discord, but besides that I've also found that random games were accepted pretty frequently. (just posting open challenges on the server thing) The quality of said games is a different matter entirely, but hey.
AlbertN
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by AlbertN »

There is a Group on Facebook too - where one may try to ask for games.

I believe for MP an amount of players are simply shy of commitment, time requirements and in general own perception of balance / fun.

Also I believe an amount of players pack in the Kulik Discord, more so than the official one.
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by Zebtucker12 »

AlbertN wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2023 3:18 pm There is a Group on Facebook too - where one may try to ask for games.

I believe for MP an amount of players are simply shy of commitment, time requirements and in general own perception of balance / fun.

Also I believe an amount of players pack in the Kulik Discord, more so than the official one.
https://discord.gg/e33e2pfyGh Link to kulik gang where bread is doing another version of this AAR.

Regards Simon Taynard
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RedJohn
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by RedJohn »

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We begin turn 4 with looking at the north. Talinn falls, the Narva is almost reached, but Pskov remains static beyond a failed attack.
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Centre is very quiet besides the fall of Smolensk.

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At Bryansk however, the Germans continue their blitz. By this point I was very dejected at how relentless his advance has been here - multiple rivers breached each turn, even with me cutting some of the units off. I also didn't have the manpower to refit the garrisoning units into actual combat capable divisions, I think the majority were very unready at this point.

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Chernigov falls, but otherwise not much action up here.

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He is however driving hard east, in the south. Odessa falls and Nikolaev comes under threat.

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Here's the one northern hold. This battle actually tilted me a little - not only did I take 7x as many losses for a victory, but these units were fresh and under Malinovsky.

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In a scouting battle, half of my total rifle squads were damaged. I think 2 of these units became unready as a result.

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The battle of Smolensk. I don't know what meth Tyronec is feeding his artillery, but good God they've been relentless this game - every significant battle has had hundreds - and often thousands - of German guns.

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Even the Romanians!

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Weather wise we see mud in much of the map, hopefully denting German trucks.

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German bombing begins in earnest.

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We make one small attack here in order to dive deep and hopefully cut off German forces in the southern spearhead.

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I also begin monitoring my TBs, not that I can do much here with them closed. As someone used to open TBs this hurts to see so early on - and boy does Stalin love reinforcing the TBs.

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His relentless advance does come at a price in trucks, however, and I also begin monitoring these turn to turn.


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We pull back to the Dnepr here, and leave a token regiment in Nikolaev for manpower evacuation and port/rail damage.
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I make the decision to abandon Kiev, not wanting to replicate history with German mobile units to my north and south. I also rail in useless tanks for the same reasons as above - this was a mistake on my part however, I forgot to leave some airborne brigades as garrisoning units but oh well.
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Ground is given up here, as I desperately try to refit these armies into something more stable than wet paper.
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At Bryansk, which was reinforced with some units that deployed this turn - we try to establish some sort of defensive line and reoccupy the taken hex and river.
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Vyazma is static. We continue to refit the 20th army (I always reinforce the starting Smolensk tanks/mech with units from other sectors, amassing thousands of AFVs.) and otherwise hold positions. You can see the deployment of the Smolensk Mountain Corps, of course all rescued from the south.
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In the north, we man the Narva and hold positions. I also rotate out the units from the stack he hit on his turn.

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Losses
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A LOT of men being transferred as you can see. And OOB.
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Air losses.

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One other important thing to mention at this point was that Tyronec seems to love his hasty attacks. I think for the vast majority of turns he's had more hasty attacks than deliberate attacks.

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I made a meme after spotting this. All in jest, of course.
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tyronec
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T4

Post by tyronec »

Satisfactory progress this turn, Baltics are pretty well cleaned up.
Advance around Pskov is blunted, strong Soviet defence building up there on the Western side of their line and I don't have enough strength to do the right hand loop to pocket them.

AGC get up to Bryansk but also not enough power to punch through quickly.

Two Panzer spearheads pocketed again, careless. I can't remember if this is the last time this happened but already too many.
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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tyronec
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by tyronec »

One other important thing to mention at this point was that Tyronec seems to love his hasty attacks. I think for the vast majority of turns he's had more hasty attacks than deliberate attacks.

Image
I made a meme after spotting this. All in jest, of course.
Top
This is an interesting point and I don't know where the balance lies.
Suppose you are going to attack two hexes with two infantry divisions, and there look to be reasonable prospects to win both. Your units have between 6-11 MPs each.
You can do two deliberate attacks, one with each infantry division. Uses 2 x 6=12 MPs.
OR
Two hasty attacks, with both infantry divisions together, uses 2 x 4=8 MPs.

The CV ratios will be similar.
With the hasty attacks I expect you lose more CP.
Fatigue am not sure, maybe more for the hasties.
Enemy losses with hasty you have twice as many guys shooting, because they all shoot twice.
Arty support all depends on how your HQs are positioned.

Is there a good reason for using deliberate that I am missing ?

And just to be pedantic, it is either tyronec or Tyrone
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
Jango32
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by Jango32 »

The reason to use deliberate attack instead of hasty attack is to maximize the damage you inflict on the enemy while minimising your own losses. Hasty attack spam usually leads to higher losses on your side in exchange for truly minimal enemy losses, about the same CPP reduction (because the final CV difference is not 20:1 or better) for your attackers and the very high likelihood of the enemy simply holding, not even retreating. I think most hasty attacks that I have seen in this game had a final CV ratio below 10:1, so combat delay in the hex is still created. The Soviets can hasty attack spam to do some very gamey things, but even that has been nerfed with the ground support changes.

Deliberate attacks have the potential to cause 50% casualties or higher on the enemy (sometimes outright shatters or 99% irrecoverable casualties), on the other hand. You will have fewer MPs to maneuver for the rest of the turn this way, but in the long run it is much better than hasty attack spams because you simply contain the enemy on-map numbers to something manageable, especially with closed TBs.

Beyond turn 1 and some cases on turn 2, the Axis player shouldn't do hasty attacks anymore IMO unless there's an extraordinarily good reason for it.
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tyronec
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by tyronec »

The reason to use deliberate attack instead of hasty attack is to maximize the damage you inflict on the enemy while minimising your own losses.
That was something that I was not aware of, except for attacking into urban.
So you are saying that a deliberate attack with one division will generate a better outcome than a hasty attack with two divisions, assuming similar odds ?
Even if you have organised your HQs so that there is as much (or maybe more) arty support.
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
Jango32
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by Jango32 »

Yes, I am.
Jango32
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by Jango32 »

Examples:

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tyronec
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by tyronec »

Yes, I am.
OK, thanks. Live and learn.
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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tyronec
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by tyronec »

So I joined the Kulik discord channel and finally found all of those AARs.
Had a look at some of the early posts of our game, not a pleasant experience. I guess some people thing it is fine to disparage other players but I find it rather offensive, about me or anyone else.

The other thing I find disappointing is that we have a war room here on the Forum where players post their helpful advice to others. I was a play tester for three years and I collated all of my experience of the game and made it available to everyone when the game was launched. That is of course well out of date now that players have put 100s or 1000s of hours into the game and MP technique and strategy has evolved. I guess you could pick it all up by ploughing through the mass of AARs and other posts on the channel but it is not exactly readable or accessible. How about it guys, RedJohn you said you were going to have a break after our game - are you willing to share your knowledge before you go ?
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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HardLuckYetAgain
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

tyronec wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 6:41 pm So I joined the Kulik discord channel and finally found all of those AARs.
Had a look at some of the early posts of our game, not a pleasant experience. I guess some people thing it is fine to disparage other players but I find it rather offensive, about me or anyone else.

The other thing I find disappointing is that we have a war room here on the Forum where players post their helpful advice to others. I was a play tester for three years and I collated all of my experience of the game and made it available to everyone when the game was launched. That is of course well out of date now that players have put 100s or 1000s of hours into the game and MP technique and strategy has evolved. I guess you could pick it all up by ploughing through the mass of AARs and other posts on the channel but it is not exactly readable or accessible. How about it guys, RedJohn you said you were going to have a break after our game - are you willing to share your knowledge before you go ?
If you don’t have the like mindset of those on that server you will not fit in. I joined for a bit, did not fit in at all, and left for good.


Good luck on the ask on the 2nd paragraph Tyronec.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by M60A3TTS »

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 10:47 pm
tyronec wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 6:41 pm So I joined the Kulik discord channel and finally found all of those AARs.
Had a look at some of the early posts of our game, not a pleasant experience. I guess some people thing it is fine to disparage other players but I find it rather offensive, about me or anyone else.

The other thing I find disappointing is that we have a war room here on the Forum where players post their helpful advice to others. I was a play tester for three years and I collated all of my experience of the game and made it available to everyone when the game was launched. That is of course well out of date now that players have put 100s or 1000s of hours into the game and MP technique and strategy has evolved. I guess you could pick it all up by ploughing through the mass of AARs and other posts on the channel but it is not exactly readable or accessible. How about it guys, RedJohn you said you were going to have a break after our game - are you willing to share your knowledge before you go ?
If you don’t have the like mindset of those on that server you will not fit in. I joined for a bit, did not fit in at all, and left for good.
Likewise.
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by EwaldvonKleist »

Discord imho has been bad for game communities formerly based on forums. Discussion becomes non-public, can't be found by search engines and the format invites low effort posts that are not useful as references. But Discord's chatroom style makes it more addictive than forums, and the UI is much better. Tagging users and copy-paste/drag&drop insertion of images that makes AAR creation much more comfortable are just two of many examples.
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by Wiedrock »

Discord vs people you like/don't like:
Imo you don't need to be fine with everyone in a community/a discord. We evolve by encountering new things/other PoVs and accepting others the way they are/understanding them is a thing getting harder these days with bubble-algorithms everywhere.
Ofc everyone can freely decide which people one surrounds himself with.

Discord vs Community(Forum):
Also Discord is a good place to chatter, build community and also chatter about the Developers from time to time. No Teacher (not even the "coolest") rly wants to hear what the pupils are talking about them. I guess we all know and agree that GG and the team made one of the greatest efforts replicating ww2. But still there are issues here and there and Discord is a good way to joke about things and more than often the issue in the end isn't that big of a deal. That way peoples issues in the heat of battle calm down and it encourages serious posts in the forum (or they just forget about it).

Just think of Discord as a place to "talk", or are you still/solely communicating by sending letters to your collegues standing right next to you?
There are no clubs/clans/guilds in games like this and also no ingame chat or audio chat or similar things. Discord gives this way of easy communication.
I also think that some of the Discord wouldn't be playing WITE2 anymore without the community in the discord.

Discord(low effort) vs Forum-Posts:
Discord isn't a Forum, you have barely ways to rly highlight/organize posts in a way that would make them having a clear structure and also the number of letters is rather limited.
Some of the posts comming to the forums are actually talked/debated about in discord prior to being published in the forums. Many people have already given their thoughts and somwhow influenced the posts. Non sense/humorous comments and thoughts have already been exchanged ...mostly :lol: .

Something else I want to add is that AARs are nice to read. But more than often things posted in them are solely kept in them and therefore are not rly accessible for a wider audience (either because of not reading AARs at all or because they'd have to read through 10 pages to get 2 sentences of new info....of 100 AARs). We already have the manual where you need to read 30 pages in 10 chapters to get all information on topic/term "X". So yes, one can keep the AARs (not so) secret knowledge inside the AARs and therfore limit it's audience but I'd encourage the veterans to also share their knowledge/findings in the war room so they'd be accessible for newer players as some kind of guide too. This would also enable more people to proof-read, rethink the topic and possibly point out errors/issues in the findings done during the AAR. This could vastly lower the "I guess it works like this" factor of the game.
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

Wiedrock wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 5:51 pm Discord vs people you like/don't like:
Imo you don't need to be fine with everyone in a community/a discord. We evolve by encountering new things/other PoVs and accepting others the way they are/understanding them is a thing getting harder these days with bubble-algorithms everywhere.
Ofc everyone can freely decide which people one surrounds himself with.

Discord vs Community(Forum):
Also Discord is a good place to chatter, build community and also chatter about the Developers from time to time. No Teacher (not even the "coolest") rly wants to hear what the pupils are talking about them. I guess we all know and agree that GG and the team made one of the greatest efforts replicating ww2. But still there are issues here and there and Discord is a good way to joke about things and more than often the issue in the end isn't that big of a deal. That way peoples issues in the heat of battle calm down and it encourages serious posts in the forum (or they just forget about it).

Just think of Discord as a place to "talk", or are you still/solely communicating by sending letters to your collegues standing right next to you?
There are no clubs/clans/guilds in games like this and also no ingame chat or audio chat or similar things. Discord gives this way of easy communication.
I also think that some of the Discord wouldn't be playing WITE2 anymore without the community in the discord.

Discord(low effort) vs Forum-Posts:
Discord isn't a Forum, you have barely ways to rly highlight/organize posts in a way that would make them having a clear structure and also the number of letters is rather limited.
Some of the posts comming to the forums are actually talked/debated about in discord prior to being published in the forums. Many people have already given their thoughts and somwhow influenced the posts. Non sense/humorous comments and thoughts have already been exchanged ...mostly :lol: .

Something else I want to add is that AARs are nice to read. But more than often things posted in them are solely kept in them and therefore are not rly accessible for a wider audience (either because of not reading AARs at all or because they'd have to read through 10 pages to get 2 sentences of new info....of 100 AARs). We already have the manual where you need to read 30 pages in 10 chapters to get all information on topic/term "X". So yes, one can keep the AARs (not so) secret knowledge inside the AARs and therfore limit it's audience but I'd encourage the veterans to also share their knowledge/findings in the war room so they'd be accessible for newer players as some kind of guide too. This would also enable more people to proof-read, rethink the topic and possibly point out errors/issues in the findings done during the AAR. This could vastly lower the "I guess it works like this" factor of the game.
Your post eerily reminiscent of a Beethoven post…


In a nutshell it is not either Discord or The forum that is the issue, even though the last two post addressed the red herring of discord vs forum, that is not why I left. The problem with the kulik discord is the vitriol that was said about players. Plain and simple. I can just bet that Tyronec found the AAR talking down about him there, but I digress on that. At least on this forum there is recourse to have it corrected, and on the Matrix discord.

Now if you want to exchanged ideas in real time then do it on the Matrix discord. At least the belittling comments will be moderated.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
RedJohn
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Re: Two Celts Walk Into a Bar - Tyronec vs RedJohn

Post by RedJohn »

I don't think I have any knowledge worth sharing, really, and categorising anything I might have is pretty time consuming. Discords are insular and cliquey by nature, but I don't think that's much different from the forums. Just look at the elusive beta tester forums.
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