Ground Attack during winter

[tyronec]

As far as I can remember I have never played a game that got to Winter '41 where the Soviets were using heavy GA; the others Axis had conceded before now. So we have reached T22 in the Game with RedJohn and this is the result of GA on one hex.
The weather is light snow.
Airbase has plenty of supplies.

VVS launched 3k+ sorties against one stack. I had AS covering it but in total the full air group launched 26 (2 x 12 plus 1 x 2) sorties to counter. There were more air groups in range too but none of them joined in.
Air combat losses were 24 for 1 which is not far off normal.

I had loaded the hex with AA, no doubt without that and if most of the bombers weren't junk then ground losses would have been significantly heavier.
Axis ground losses are for the Soviet air phase, just the one hex attacked.

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This has been discussed in the AAR and the advice was set up your AS and that will provide sufficient cover. Looks to me that AS is just not flying so much in the snow and thus letting the bombers through. Am I missing something ?

The other point I would make is that in this game we have house ruled for no GA against airbases after T1. If the VVS had bombed my airbase this turn it would have wiped out the fighters, and do that a few more times hitting the right airbases and it is game over. But I don't see any AARs on the Forum with a house rule against GA airbase. Seems to me there will always be the possibility for the VVS to take out the Luftwaffe fighters with GA even with AS. Are players just not doing it or is it really possible to protect against it ?

[Wiedrock]

Pls add all the other Detail Screens.

[AlbertN]

In accord to my limited experience AS hardly work.

IF it is placed afar from the airbase one is wild guessing where the enemy will bomb - and that is also before one moves. Which makes AS impratical.
Also in that case in general OPs losses are insane.

The other way is to make AS centered on the airbase - which seems to minimize losses; but then one needs insane range to cover hexes. Which translates that the few airplanes the Axis has are all scattered all over the hexes and can barely intercept the bazillion of GA situations the VVS can issue.

I'd refuse to play a game - in the current status - where Ground Attack : Unit is allowed.

In general the air war as it is should just be trashed, and reworked from scratch in both UI and pretty much everything. With way less micro than what's presently needed.
Very often -less is more- and in this case surely is.

[M60A3TTS]

For anyone interested, here is where Tyrone is getting attacked. Almost 200 miles southeast of Rostov. On Turn 21.

[AlbertN]

That does not change my stance, since to me it happened on Turn 3-4 around Narva in my own game.

And Turn 21 to be there may well mean that soon there will be massive supply issues for the Germans, for all I know. But that is another tale and different topic.

[M60A3TTS]

That does not change my stance, since to me it happened on Turn 3-4 around Narva in my own game.

And Turn 21 to be there may well mean that soon there will be massive supply issues for the Germans, for all I know. But that is another tale and different topic.

I wouldn't try to change your opinion, Albert. You've made it clear how much you dislike the air component. I'm also sure you understand the chance of a complete teardown and rebuild of the air piece is zero.

[tyronec]

Pls add all the other Detail Screens.

You mean all the other 10 screens during the GA ?
They are really not showing anything much different...

For anyone interested, here is where Tyrone is getting attacked. Almost 200 miles southeast of Rostov. On Turn 21.

Yes, it is at the limit of where my AS can reach.
Does AS only activate effectively if the attack is at less than maximum range ?
Or do you only get good intercepts if the enemy has to fly over some friendly hexes first, I understand that is how CAP works ?
Or is it the weather ?

[AlbertN]

That does not change my stance, since to me it happened on Turn 3-4 around Narva in my own game.

And Turn 21 to be there may well mean that soon there will be massive supply issues for the Germans, for all I know. But that is another tale and different topic.

I wouldn't try to change your opinion, Albert. You've made it clear how much you dislike the air component. I'm also sure you understand the chance of a complete teardown and rebuild of the air piece is zero.

I am fully aware, somewhen in the past it was asked what one would change of the air business and I think I'm among ones who made a small list of what is considered feasible.

On the other hand, for any future product, if there will be any (which I do not know) the present system is simply a hindrance and hurdle.

Now back on topic here - was there an AS umbrella at all?
Or were you relying on auto intercept?
Beacuse the closemost airfields are not exactly 'close' - and as I said above AS with a large range simply means the planes 'patrol' all over the place, thus either hardly intercept or if they intercept they 're in small amounts.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

For anyone interested, here is where Tyrone is getting attacked. Almost 200 miles southeast of Rostov. On Turn 21.

Ya, that is a bit far for 41

[tyronec]

Now back on topic here - was there an AS umbrella at all?
Or were you relying on auto intercept?
Beacuse the closemost airfields are not exactly 'close' - and as I said above AS with a large range simply means the planes 'patrol' all over the place, thus either hardly intercept or if they intercept they 're in small amounts.
Top

Yes, they are on AS as shown on the combat report.
It is at maximum range.

I have not used AS much, in the old days it cost ops losses so wasn't really viable most of the time.
I thought it it was a conceptual thing and was activated regardless of range so that is why I asked. Is activation dependent on range ?

Ya, that is a bit far for 41

OK, so I have advanced too far so my AS should stop working ?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Now back on topic here - was there an AS umbrella at all?
Or were you relying on auto intercept?
Beacuse the closemost airfields are not exactly 'close' - and as I said above AS with a large range simply means the planes 'patrol' all over the place, thus either hardly intercept or if they intercept they 're in small amounts.
Top

Yes, they are on AS as shown on the combat report.
It is at maximum range.

I have not used AS much, in the old days it cost ops losses so wasn't really viable most of the time.
I thought it it was a conceptual thing and was activated regardless of range so that is why I asked. Is activation dependent on range ?

Ya, that is a bit far for 41

OK, so I have advanced too far so my AS should stop working ?

AS works and works well when set up correctly. But I do not have the time to show how to do it at this moment.

AS can reach the area set up. Max range is iffy if Soviet bombers are bombing that edge of the AS (i.e. 10 hex range AS) and bombing that 10 hex range. AS has the ability to call in other nearby fighters in the area(if those fighters are in the area and not on rest). So yes the snapshot M60 showed has a ton of bearing since this area is devoid of airbases. AS is CAP in my book and AS can call in "basic" interception once engaged. At least that is what Joel Billings said and is from my experience too.

Weather has an impact too.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=389692

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Your supply status, airbase status, and commander are all contributing factors too.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

OK, so I have advanced too far so my AS should stop working ?

That should not be the case at all.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Jubjub showed me (us on the forums) to set AS up on the airbase it is on and OPS losses were non-existent. Now after some rework done by the devs in March timeframe, you can fly range with AS and suffer few if any AS losses now. AS is very viable now.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Showed also set up overlapping AS's

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Size of AB makes a difference to.

[Wiedrock]

Pls add all the other Detail Screens.

You mean all the other 10 screens during the GA ?
They are really not showing anything much different...

Not all, sry. Just some that make some sense to you and which you'd want to show off.
Generally it's always good to have more stuff to look at when it comes down to some "complains".
Also maybe the Air Losses Screen, so we see AA vs A2A losses for you both.
And eventually the Commanders Report -> Battle (and then filter for the GA Unit results [Ground Tab] and/or also the A2A Results [Air Tab], so we have all battles to look at in those 2 pictures [how many AFV, Planes and so on were lost].

For anyone interested, here is where Tyrone is getting attacked. Almost 200 miles southeast of Rostov. On Turn 21.

Yes, it is at the limit of where my AS can reach.
Does AS only activate effectively if the attack is at less than maximum range ?
Or do you only get good intercepts if the enemy has to fly over some friendly hexes first, I understand that is how CAP works ?
Or is it the weather ?

The weather is Cold, that's not too bad, I guess all weather effects reduce the chances of intercepting a little tho.
I am almost certain that the max range is important since I doubt 2by3 would make it to have same effect all over the Mission area.
Your Altitude is 9000ft. If I may suggest to fly at 18000ft because that's the area where this type of planes reaches its max speed. Not 100% sure how the calculations are running, but I am 99% sure that speed is by far the important thing for fighters. Also you can even intercept planes at Mission altitudes of 1k at this height, there may be some "less chance" when the difference of Altitudes is too great, but if I had to make a statement I'd say "speed matters". FYI, I am 99% sure, that the speed at which you fly your mission is used for Combat, so your Fighters currently are using the speed they fly at 9k (so about 368.2mph) to shoot enemies at 14k, whereas at 18k you'd fight with ~404mph speed.
But that's just some of my observations/tests, take them as hints and test them yourself if you want to make sure I don't talk bs.

Airbase has plenty of supplies.

Your "Supplies" includes Fuel+Ammo? I never looked into AS consumtion rates of Fuel, Fighters use way more Fuel than Ammo, so that's would/could be a limiting factor if it is too low. For comparison, your Bf 109F-4 have a Sortie Fuel of 661, which means 661lb. So each plane taking off consumes 661lb, assuming they fly in stacks of 24 it's 24*661lb/2000lb=7.9tons of Fuel per such Mission. But as said, may all be little different for AS missions, especially since there are missions "during enemy phase/turn".

[tyronec]

Not all, sry. Just some that make some sense to you and which you'd want to show off.
Generally it's always good to have more stuff to look at when it comes down to some "complains".
Also maybe the Air Losses Screen, so we see AA vs A2A losses for you both.
And eventually the Commanders Report -> Battle (and then filter for the GA Unit results [Ground Tab] and/or also the A2A Results [Air Tab], so we have all battles to look at in those 2 pictures [how many AFV, Planes and so on were lost].

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[tyronec]

More

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I don't follow why the 88s were not firing, there were three of these AA SUs in the hex. They account for the 27 x 20mm AA.

[tyronec]

And more

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In my view GA is broken, actually it has never worked - at least early war. We had games during testing where it was demonstrated that a Soviet player could batter Axis so badly that the game was as good as over, and there was nothing Axis could do about it. At that time AS suffered from heavy ops losses so was not a viable counter.

So now AS is a possible counter. What I am interested in is seeing if that works or if the Soviets can work a way around it. The developers have been clear that they are not going to rewrite the air war nor do away with GA.
Actually I think historically the way the air war is working makes no sense, as demonstrated here. Over 3k bombing sorties in a week against one target hex and 100 (am not sure the exact number because am part way through my turn) or so Luftwaffe fighters within range can muster only 26 interception sorties. However my main interest is in the game being playable and balanced and if some aspects of it are not historical then I can live with that.

If AS doesn't do the job then the solution is either to house rule out GA, or only play against Soviet players who are not going to make full use of it.