How to approach the winter of 1941 as axis

[parkingmyscooter]

Hi,

So I am ready to start my first general campaign game. I've played most of the small scenarios and feel pretty good about starting the full thing.

One part I really dont understand still is how to approach the 1941 winter as the axis. I heard that playing through the operation typhoon game would be useful to experience what the blizzard was like, but it didn't really have that big an impact? My advance was definitely slowed and the soviets tried a few counterattacks, but largely I just kept going (very slowly).

I've read in old posts (but none recent) that folks do things like start building lines of fortified hexes 6 hexes from the front line (in September?) and huddle panzer divisions in cities. But I didn't really need to do that in the typhoon scenario.

Am I misunderstanding? How should axis players approach the winter, and when should they start preparing? 
Seriously any help would be awesome!

[Jango32]

The most important aspect to clarify is if it's for PvP or against the AI.

[parkingmyscooter]

The most important aspect to clarify is if it's for PvP or against the AI.

Interesting! Vs. the AI

Thanks!

[loutro]

I have played WITE2 since it came out. I am not in the same league as those who post here frequently. I am but a mere mortal. I can't grind, I can't herd. I play sloppy at times, I tend to rush through turns (that's a result of playing while working...) But I love the game and am having fun.

Assuming you are not playing the Early End option and vs AI.

I am currently in mid 1942 in the GC and this has been my best effort yet. Surviving the winter of 41/42 either makes or breaks you.

To be honest, I found the key to surviving the winter is based on the first turn. If you have an exceptional first turn, especially in the South, you can do well to prepare for the winter. Grab land, kill Soviets. Know when to stop your advance and dig in.

Basic idea:
1. You need to know when the mud turns start and be ready for them. Once they hit, you are stuck. Movement and combat won't happen.

2. After the mud turns comes the blizzard. You have maybe 3-4 turns to move around and prepare for the Soviet counter offensive.

3. For the Soviet winter offensive: Bend, don't break. Give up land as needed, counter attack when necessary.

4. Logistics is key. Get that supply line built, depots where needed.

Here is my front line on December 14, Turn 26
It runs from just outside of Rostov-Stalino-Kharkov-Kursk (which I did lose in the Winter) - Orel - Durovo - Toropets - Staraya Russa - Novogorod - Chudovo - Osinovets



I took Leningrad in mid-November. That too was key. I now have 4th Pz Armee to move where I want. And the Soviets will not be happy with Leningrad falling, so prepare for that.

Here is AGS; you can see Soviet attacks, and a tiny pocket.



I did not move my Panzers far from the front or send them to the Reserve TB. I did try to rest them as best I could, usually a few hexes from the front with HQs in/near cities/depots. Then counter attack when needed. By April of 42, I pretty much had the same front line.

AGS was pretty battered though after winter and wasn't completely ready for the summer offensive by the end of May. Part of this was the poor supply I had set up.

Losses as of Turn 26, Mid December 41



The key is advance as far as possible before the mud. Dig in and wait out the winter. I could have moved further after the mud and before December, but I chose not to. Keep a coherent front line

Here is the situation in the South on Jan 11, 1942


The Orel Area. The Soviets hit this area pretty hard all winter. But I did hold Orel


AGN T30

[parkingmyscooter]

Thanks Loutro! Very helpful screenshots

Those are really useful tips. It's so interesting how much success in the campaign is seemingly so tied to the first few turns. I actually have taken a slightly different strategy than you, In an effort to prioritize the South, I've basically slided each of my panzer groups south a little bit such that 1-2 are focused on the Kiev axis and 3-4 are headed toward Smolensk. We'll see how it works out....

A few questions came up as I read your message:

1. When you talk about the "mud turns" - what exactly do you mean? I've seen rains in October that cause light mud...but surely that's too early to stop?
2. When you talk about "digging in", what techniques do you use? The only thing I can think of is to create fortified zones, but that uses AP so isn't feasible for more than a number of places.

Thanks again!

[loutro]

A few questions came up as I read your message:

1. When you talk about the "mud turns" - what exactly do you mean? I've seen rains in October that cause light mud...but surely that's too early to stop?
2. When you talk about "digging in", what techniques do you use? The only thing I can think of is to create fortified zones, but that uses AP so isn't feasible for more than a number of places.

Turn 18 is when heavy mud arrives. You can move some, but attacking is out of the question all combat values are reduced.
These turns last until Turn 20 or 21.

As far as digging in...if you leave units in one hex over a period of time, they dig in...fortify that hex. You can see the strength of the fort by pressing "F" on the keyboard. So it is an automatic fortification sequence, but they use man power as well, about 1,700 men for each fort.

So if you start to rest your units around turn 18 and don't move them, they will build their own forts. Do this around cities and have HQs in the city to help with supply.

And you are right, building Forts costs AP and you are limited to how many you can build. 20 I think. Although I have a few forts in cities that have a value of 50-0. I added flak, pioneers and construction units to them.

I think the key is to stop advancing before the winter so you can create a strong front line. It is tempting to advance as far as you can, but when the Soviets begin to counter attack, you will probably be exposed and at risk. Resting your units as much as possible so they do have some ability to attack when necessary.

[Wiedrock]

but they use man power as well, about 1,700 men for each fort.

Fortified Zones/Regions have Manpower is what you want to say. Or?

[ErickRepie]

What about Sevastopol area? did you besieged or bypass it?
Outstanding feat to reach Orel - Kursk - Rostov line in 1941 ... i never made it

[Veterin]

What about Sevastopol area? did you besieged or bypass it?
Outstanding feat to reach Orel - Kursk - Rostov line in 1941 ... i never made it

Most 41 games end up there (although usually short of Rostov as harder to hold)

[loutro]

What about Sevastopol area? did you besieged or bypass it?
Outstanding feat to reach Orel - Kursk - Rostov line in 1941 ... i never made it

Rumanians took everything in the Crimea except Sevastopol in November 41. I’m in early August 42 now and have had to send 9 German divisions to try and take it. Should have done so sooner.

[parkingmyscooter]

Thanks Loutro! That answered my questioned very well. I appreciate it!

[parkingmyscooter]

Thanks Loutro! That answered my questioned very well. I appreciate it!

[parkingmyscooter]

A few questions came up as I read your message:

1. When you talk about the "mud turns" - what exactly do you mean? I've seen rains in October that cause light mud...but surely that's too early to stop?
2. When you talk about "digging in", what techniques do you use? The only thing I can think of is to create fortified zones, but that uses AP so isn't feasible for more than a number of places.

Turn 18 is when heavy mud arrives. You can move some, but attacking is out of the question all combat values are reduced.
These turns last until Turn 20 or 21.

As far as digging in...if you leave units in one hex over a period of time, they dig in...fortify that hex. You can see the strength of the fort by pressing "F" on the keyboard. So it is an automatic fortification sequence, but they use man power as well, about 1,700 men for each fort.

So if you start to rest your units around turn 18 and don't move them, they will build their own forts. Do this around cities and have HQs in the city to help with supply.

And you are right, building Forts costs AP and you are limited to how many you can build. 20 I think. Although I have a few forts in cities that have a value of 50-0. I added flak, pioneers and construction units to them.

I think the key is to stop advancing before the winter so you can create a strong front line. It is tempting to advance as far as you can, but when the Soviets begin to counter attack, you will probably be exposed and at risk. Resting your units as much as possible so they do have some ability to attack when necessary.

Well, here I am: https://imgur.com/a/oP0wzFm

My overall grand strategy was to prioritize the AGS and AGC, with the goal of reaching Stalino-Kursk-Orel-Ryzhev by the mud. As you can see...I didn't quite make it, and my front isn't very pretty. I am onto the next turn already and the soviet counter-offensive is already in force.

How does this look to more experienced eyes? (Keep in mind I am running normal settings with morale at 100 so hopefully AI isn't too strong). Is this an alright place to be, or am I doomed and should roll back to an earlier save and try things differently? Appreciate any feedback!

[loutro]

I think that taking Leningrad in 1941 is a must. This does 2 things:

• 30 points (it is a game...)

• It frees up 4th Panzer Armee

In my current game, I took Leningrad on Turn 21.
After Leningrad falls, I keep 4th Pz Arm near Leningrad until early 42. I put the panzer divisions in towns with supply and HQs. They build up their TOEs. The infantry divisions from 4th Pz I use to help defend and then counter attack until that front settles down. Then I move 4th Pz Arm to the South.

If you can hold Rzhev, D-town and Z-town, you should be in good shape for 1942. If they fall, your problems begin. Supply becomes an issue as those towns have multiple rail stations which brings in more supply. Where are your nearest depots behind those cities? How is your rail setup?

If you lose those cities, you then have to give ground and managing your front line can be problematic. What shape are your units in?

I watched this guy in his latest Axis PBEM game. His opening turn and setup helped me understand and see how important the first turn can be.

His setup turn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11X-mbp ... 56&index=2

Turn one. I know it is a long video, but I used his opening moves and it made a difference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlAgcQR ... z5&index=2

I do enjoy this game, but have one issue. If I cannot at least replicate the historical outcome in a game, I find that frustrating. I should be able to get to the outskirts of Moscow without some crazy plan of play or having use gamey mechanics to beat the AI.

[loutro]

I think that taking Leningrad in 1941 is a must. This does 2 things:

• 30 points (it is a game...)

• It frees up 4th Panzer Armee

In my current game, I took Leningrad on Turn 21.
After Leningrad falls, I keep 4th Pz Arm near Leningrad until early 42. I put the panzer divisions in towns with supply and HQs. They build up their TOEs. The infantry divisions from 4th Pz I use to help defend and then counter attack until that front settles down. Then I move 4th Pz Arm to the South.

If you can hold Rzhev, D-town and Z-town, you should be in good shape for 1942. If they fall, your problems begin. Supply becomes an issue as those towns have multiple rail stations which brings in more supply. Where are your nearest depots behind those cities? How is your rail setup?

If you lose those cities, you then have to give ground and managing your front line can be problematic. What shape are your units in?

I watched this guy in his latest Axis PBEM game. His opening turn and setup helped me understand and see how important the first turn can be.

His setup turn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11X-mbp ... 56&index=2

Turn one. I know it is a long video, but I used his opening moves and it made a difference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlAgcQR ... z5&index=2

I do enjoy this game, but have one issue. If I cannot at least replicate the historical outcome in a game, I find that frustrating.

[parkingmyscooter]

I think that taking Leningrad in 1941 is a must. This does 2 things:

• 30 points (it is a game...)

• It frees up 4th Panzer Armee

In my current game, I took Leningrad on Turn 21.
After Leningrad falls, I keep 4th Pz Arm near Leningrad until early 42. I put the panzer divisions in towns with supply and HQs. They build up their TOEs. The infantry divisions from 4th Pz I use to help defend and then counter attack until that front settles down. Then I move 4th Pz Arm to the South.

If you can hold Rzhev, D-town and Z-town, you should be in good shape for 1942. If they fall, your problems begin. Supply becomes an issue as those towns have multiple rail stations which brings in more supply. Where are your nearest depots behind those cities? How is your rail setup?

If you lose those cities, you then have to give ground and managing your front line can be problematic. What shape are your units in?

I watched this guy in his latest Axis PBEM game. His opening turn and setup helped me understand and see how important the first turn can be.

His setup turn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11X-mbp ... 56&index=2

Turn one. I know it is a long video, but I used his opening moves and it made a difference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlAgcQR ... z5&index=2

I do enjoy this game, but have one issue. If I cannot at least replicate the historical outcome in a game, I find that frustrating. I should be able to get to the outskirts of Moscow without some crazy plan of play or having use gamey mechanics to beat the AI.

Thanks Loutro - extremely helpful advice as always

I hoped that wouldn't be the case....from the start, I had given up on Leningrad with the idea that I wasn't going to conquer it in 1941 anyway and the extra PZ group would be better used in the south (I basically shifted all the PZ groups south slightly so that PZ 1 + 2 were part of AGS.)

It seems that gamble wasn't worth it, given I didn't make it as far south as I wanted to.

Good point on the approaches to Moscow and the comparison to historical record - I agree with you

Here are my supply lines with my current game: https://imgur.com/a/eqyiDjQ I thought I did a reasonable job, but welcome your thoughts.

I'll definitely take a detailed look at those videos. I see in the first one he is starting by optimizing the Theatre Boxes, which is an impressive level of commitment. But if I'm going to start over... I suppose it makes sense to do it right

[parkingmyscooter]

I will say lots of my units are now rated “under strength” (which I think refers to TOE). so I guess my supply lines probably aren’t all that great….

[DekeFentle]

To be honest, I found the key to surviving the winter is based on the first turn. If you have an exceptional first turn, especially in the South, you can do well to prepare for the winter. Grab land, kill Soviets. Know when to stop your advance and dig in.

How about adding to that first turn in the North - Center? See link in my signature.

[parkingmyscooter]

I think that taking Leningrad in 1941 is a must. This does 2 things:

• 30 points (it is a game...)

• It frees up 4th Panzer Armee

Hey all,

A few weeks later, I can report the new strategies definitely worked. Here is where I was at turn 26. Not quite where you were Loutro, but not too far off! The videos on the first move were masterful, and honestly a big improvement for me was learning just how important breaking apart the motorized divisions is to better create pockets.

20231223191005_1.jpg (1.61 MiB) Viewed 1652 times

Now I'm at turn 37 on March 15st...and WOW I am pretty battered from the soviet offensive. As you can see, I've lost Stalino, Kursk, Kharkov, Orel, Ryzev. Hoping to hold onto Dnepropetrovsk but frankly don't think I will. Moreover, my ToEs and CPPs are just trashed, with most of my units depleted or unready. The good news is that I did get the Leningrad VPs in mid-December...

Is that all fairly typical? I wanted to rest my PZs but ended up having to use them just to stem the tide. I'm hoping everything transforms again in April...

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20231226213113_1.jpg (529.84 KiB) Viewed 1652 times

[loutro]

It is amazing how important Turn 1 is for the whole campaign.

Here is where I was at T37

Turn 37

t37 map.png (1.74 MiB) Viewed 1609 times

I have a well developed Fort in Stalino, with units recovering around the city.

Stalino

t3t stalino.png (1.87 MiB) Viewed 1609 times

Handling the Soviet Winter Counter Attack
I am not sure how the AI determines where it will attack. I know that when Leningrad has fallen, there will be counter-attacks in that area. Other than that, the AI attacked along most of the front, but seemed to be determined to take Orel, Kursk, Kharkiv and with a lot of attacks along the southern most area, SW of Rostov. It never broke through in a manner that threatened a large portion of my front.

I took Orel, Kursk, Kharkiv and Stalino. I only lost Kursk during the winter.
I was able to beat back the attacks without yielding too much ground.
I was able to rest elements of my panzer armees and rotate them back into the front, as you can see below.

Losing Kursk....

t37 kursk.png (1.05 MiB) Viewed 1609 times

What did you do with 4th Pz Armee? I tend to send one corps into the AGC area and keep the other corps with AGN til April. Then I move that to AGC as well.

Having a good supply line and a super depot nearby is vital. From prior GCs, I know that if you lose D-Town, Stalino, Kharkov etc, it will really make the Axis 42 summer campaign more difficult.

Here is a post from earlier this year about the Winter of '41:

Hunker down and minimize movement. Understand that if you are forced to retreat in combat you will lose quite a few AFVs. It will not be uncommon by the end of March for some divisions to have none operational at all. Don't expend much effort trying to refit these units, the newly arriving equipment will just break down in their turn.

Set your panzer replacement battalions to refit, a few at a time in order to get them loaded with medium tanks. The recon and CS support tanks are not nearly as important as doctrinally the German Army is moving away from these vehicle types and production of new vehicles is accordingly small.

Once April arrives you want to have a large depot with plenty of supplies to have you gather your panzers divisions around. Make a super depot near the front as needed. You're going to want like 20k supplies stored to keep things humming. It's completely legit as the German Army was building it's supply base up for the upcoming Blau offensive. This is the critical time to begin the rehab process to get the broken stuff out and the new stuff in. You should have your panzers under a corps HQ with a high admin leader. Hans Krebs is a very good choice (yes, the same Krebs in Downfall. He's an excellent administrator.) Set HQ supply priority 4.

Your typical 42 Panzer Division needs about 110 medium tanks to be at 100%. Once you get to around 70, you can assign a panzer replacement battalion to bring it up to almost full strength in terms of medium tanks.