Ground Attack during winter

[tyronec]

This is what Joel wrote:

Re: The Power of Air Superiority
Post by Joel Billings » Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:22 pm

I think the issue with auto intercepts versus AS or GA versus GS is all around the ability to detect the incoming raid. There should be no difference between a city attack and a ground attack in how the interceptors react. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that's my understanding. Worth someone testing it out. Usually when conducting GA missions, they are against targets near or on the front line, thus less time in the air to detect the raid and intercept it. A city attack against a city in the rear has a better chance of being detected in time to get fighters to intercept. AS allows you to detect the raid far out from the target (as in HLYA's example). If you detect the raid early enough, you can get intercepts to happen. Now what else determines the chance to detect the raid? Currently I think it's based on date and the airbases nearby (with the larger airbases having the better chance to detect incoming raids). This is an abstraction to some extent, but deals with issues of detection by radar versus ground based systems of spotters, and that all of this improved over time. I think we've mentioned this before, but I don't remember if it's covered in the manual.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

So what I understand from this is that AS interceptions will occur if the GA is within the AS zone, and that where the GA hits doesn't matter. While the chance of auto-intercepts is dependent on how much friendly terrain the bombers fly over, amongst other things.
I set up a test bed and there was little difference to AS interceptions if the GA was on the side of the AS zone, or on the corner, or in the middle. However there were more auto-intercepts coming in to assist the AS if the GA was closer.

HLYA has said:
AS works and works well when set up correctly. But I do not have the time to show how to do it at this moment.
AS can reach the area set up. Max range is iffy if Soviet bombers are bombing that edge of the AS - my test shows otherwise
Your supply status, airbase status, and commander are all contributing factors too. - none of these can account for such low interceptions. I did a super depot on that hex last turn, it has supply
Size of AB makes a difference to. - it is working fine off level 1 airbases elsewhere
Weather has an impact too. - maybe this is the reason

Just as an aside, I tried airbase bombing with the VVS test bed (RtL, T1). The Soviets were able to get a kill ratio of around 1:4 against AS protected airbases instead of the usual 1:10 or so for air combat. Clearly this is an auto-win for any Soviet player who can work out airbase bombing to take out the Axis fighters; and so it should be house ruled out.

[PeteJC]

I am currently on turn 23 as Axis against a human opponent with the .52 patch. I have used AS sparingly. For about 8 turns straight over the immediate Leningrad area as an effort to stop potential air supply being dropped in and 2 various turns to see if I could stop some interdiction runs my opponent was doing.

During the Leningrad operations (out of Luga air base) my results against Patrol missions by the Soviets were excellent. Long story short I shot down 3/4 of all the I-Series planes he had patrolling the area (there were no better planes) for virtually no losses. However, the AS picked nothing else up.

On the two other separate times I used AS (from nearby bases and excellent weather) they did not pick up any GA or interdiction missions in their area.

So, in my very limited experience it seems AS can be very effective countering enemy Patrol missions (are these missions where they are trying to intercept my GS?) but does not find anything else.

[Zebtucker12]

In my opinion its best to bann GA and it seems to be a common view.

[M60A3TTS]

I think GA is fine given you can counter it with AS in many instances, and don't know on what basis you say it's a common view.

[Zebtucker12]

I think GA is fine given you can counter it with AS in many instances, and don't know on what basis you say it's a common view.

Its houseruled out in most aars iv seen.
Im not sure you can and defenitly not after 1943 when the vvs can drown you in low flying La5s

[RedJohn]

The only valid argument for banning GA is potentially interception might be funky. But the actual interceptions themselves result in entire air groups being shot down in a turn.

I think it's fine, personally.

[M60A3TTS]

What I found interesting from the pics was that the first successful GA mission was about 75% bi-planes. The RZ-s, of which there are like 240 in the GC are not produced in the game and the U2-VS that are plentiful. I wonder which of these did the bulk of the damage. Having cold weather didn't hurt the effort certainly, but still...

edit: It would also be interesting to note since the target hex is well out there for Tyrone, I wonder if the ground unit was able to get to its traditional fort level 1 or if it was just out there in the open without any fort level at all. One would think that might boost the ground losses with no fort.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

This is what Joel wrote:

Re: The Power of Air Superiority
Post by Joel Billings » Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:22 pm

I think the issue with auto intercepts versus AS or GA versus GS is all around the ability to detect the incoming raid. There should be no difference between a city attack and a ground attack in how the interceptors react. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that's my understanding. Worth someone testing it out. Usually when conducting GA missions, they are against targets near or on the front line, thus less time in the air to detect the raid and intercept it. A city attack against a city in the rear has a better chance of being detected in time to get fighters to intercept. AS allows you to detect the raid far out from the target (as in HLYA's example). If you detect the raid early enough, you can get intercepts to happen. Now what else determines the chance to detect the raid? Currently I think it's based on date and the airbases nearby (with the larger airbases having the better chance to detect incoming raids). This is an abstraction to some extent, but deals with issues of detection by radar versus ground based systems of spotters, and that all of this improved over time. I think we've mentioned this before, but I don't remember if it's covered in the manual.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

So what I understand from this is that AS interceptions will occur if the GA is within the AS zone, and that where the GA hits doesn't matter. While the chance of auto-intercepts is dependent on how much friendly terrain the bombers fly over, amongst other things.
I set up a test bed and there was little difference to AS interceptions if the GA was on the side of the AS zone, or on the corner, or in the middle. However there were more auto-intercepts coming in to assist the AS if the GA was closer.

HLYA has said:
AS works and works well when set up correctly. But I do not have the time to show how to do it at this moment.
AS can reach the area set up. Max range is iffy if Soviet bombers are bombing that edge of the AS - my test shows otherwise
Your supply status, airbase status, and commander are all contributing factors too. - none of these can account for such low interceptions. I did a super depot on that hex last turn, it has supply
Size of AB makes a difference to. - it is working fine off level 1 airbases elsewhere
Weather has an impact too. - maybe this is the reason

Just as an aside, I tried airbase bombing with the VVS test bed (RtL, T1). The Soviets were able to get a kill ratio of around 1:4 against AS protected airbases instead of the usual 1:10 or so for air combat. Clearly this is an auto-win for any Soviet player who can work out airbase bombing to take out the Axis fighters; and so it should be house ruled out.

Good luck, I am sure you will figure it out eventually. But AS is not broken. I went on a very deep dive on figuring out AS after being the recipient of AB bombing. (I did not have AS setup either).

You can find the Joel post stating that AB size matter by the way

[RedJohn]

What I found interesting from the pics was that the first successful GA mission was about 75% bi-planes. The RZ-s, of which there are like 240 in the GC are not produced in the game and the U2-VS that are plentiful. I wonder which of these did the bulk of the damage. Having cold weather didn't hurt the effort certainly, but still...

edit: It would also be interesting to note since the target hex is well out there for Tyrone, I wonder if the ground unit was able to get to its traditional fort level 1 or if it was just out there in the open without any fort level at all. One would think that might boost the ground losses with no fort.

It was unforted and a triple stack. AA was brutal originally, then as the phase went on it ran out of ammo or whatever makes AA stop firing after a certain point.

I've found the biplanes do some decent work for GA. Great to shove them in VL area or other areas with just infantry and often no German fighters.

[tyronec]

Good luck, I am sure you will figure it out eventually. But AS is not broken. I went on a very deep dive on figuring out AS after being the recipient of AB bombing. (I did not have AS setup either).

You can find the Joel post stating that AB size matter by the way

That is the third time that you have posted that AS is fine, however you have not come up with an explanation as to why it is not working in this case.
Maybe it is fine, I don't know, but to give some credibility to what you write it would be helpful to explain what has gone wrong here.

Joel writes in your post above that AB size matters.

[M60A3TTS]

You say you are flying at max range, ok.

How many aircraft are assigned to this AS mission? What we saw in the pics was a response by no more than 12 of your aircraft from one flight.

Are the Min and Req AC at 0/Auto or are you using a custom setting?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Good luck, I am sure you will figure it out eventually. But AS is not broken. I went on a very deep dive on figuring out AS after being the recipient of AB bombing. (I did not have AS setup either).

You can find the Joel post stating that AB size matter by the way

That is the third time that you have posted that AS is fine, however you have not come up with an explanation as to why it is not working in this case.
Maybe it is fine, I don't know, but to give some credibility to what you write it would be helpful to explain what has gone wrong here.

Joel writes in your post above that AB size matters.

Without knowing your full composition of things transpired “we” all would be guessing since every situation is different. If it is a PBEM game I could give it a look if you trust me and I have time to do so. If it is a server game then pictures of the end turn deposition of your fighters, the AB, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. There are many factors and any of them could be relevant in and if its own right.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

You say you are flying at max range, ok.

How many aircraft are assigned to this AS mission? What we saw in the pics was a response by no more than 12 of your aircraft from one flight.

Are the Min and Req AC at 0/Auto or are you using a custom setting?

There are so many variables.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

two points in this thread.

1. Too many causalities by bombers.

2. And AS interception.

[tyronec]

How many aircraft are assigned to this AS mission? What we saw in the pics was a response by no more than 12 of your aircraft from one flight.

Are the Min and Req AC at 0/Auto or are you using a custom setting?

One air group, about 40 aircraft.
I have not changed any settings for AS.

It is a server game, am onto the next turn so things have changed since then.

[M60A3TTS]

ok, one air group, max range, probably single strip field which is known to be a limiting element. Decent fuel and leadership I'll assume. Default settings. I didn't ask about pilot fatigue that could be a factor.

Strictly from a game mechanics standpoint, you really have to lower your expectations. 40 planes gives you 4 potential flights of between 1-12 planes. Not sure if 40 planes are ready and 40 pilots available. The AI is giving you one flight on occasion. One group is just not likely to spin off enough aircraft when the AI assigns them to go. You can only do two groups on a single strip field without going over the capacity limit but even then single strip fields are already known to cause additional ops losses and aircraft breakdown or getting put in a reserve state. I'd say you need two single strip fields with 2 groups of 40 planes each if you want to have some real effect.

You say you are using default settings. Clearly RedJohn isn't, he's maxxing out the GA requirement with 200 attacking planes required and probably as many escorts. Even with a successful intercept, you're going to take some hits. Your ground units are out in the open, no cover, and 100kg bombs are raining down everywhere. That explains the loss thing. Your ground units can't get enough supplies out there to build a basic fort level 1 because their priorities are needing supplies like food and ammo.

[821Bobo]

My point of view is that not AS is the problem, but the sheer number of planes Soviets can bring into the fight. That's completely out of any plausibility. Coordinated strike with 400 planes with cruise speed ranging from 70mph to 260mph? Not in this universe. Hell, max speed of the U-2VS is lower than stall speed of most other Soviet planes.

[M60A3TTS]

My point of view is that not AS is the problem, but the sheer number of planes Soviets can bring into the fight. That's completely out of any plausibility. Coordinated strike with 400 planes with cruise speed ranging from 70mph to 260mph? Not in this universe. Hell, max speed of the U-2VS is lower than stall speed of most other Soviet planes.

And I've been down this road before. If the leader is Falaleev, air rating 6 which is "good" for the Soviets, I think it's plausible he could coordinate it. In theory that may be two airfields for 400 planes.

My issue is that anyone can currently do it. Any shlepp with air rating 3 is just as effective. That's what is wrong, at least imho.

I'd also suggest that the army malus that uses a 12 divisor instead of 10 in the first 24 turns could just as easily apply to air leaders.

[Wiedrock]

Just a quick FYI, for those not following the changes in the 1.03.07 Live version of the game, following some Patch notes.
But as pointed out, there are plenty of Factors involved, everywhere. And the setup is far from being a "perfect example". You advance without nearby fighters = you risk.
Imo an "Airbase lvl 0 [50engines]" should be able to be built in 1 Turn(which is one week) during the Ground Phase for like 20AP (or whatever) to give some sense of having makeshift Airfields, but that's another topic/Thread.

---

There were just made plenty of changs to A2G GA missions due to this and the subordinated Threads. There was a rather long phase of the Beta where peple were requested to make reports about weird results regarding this.
Here some of the Changes, can be found here:

V1.03.06 – 31st October 2023
New Features and Rule Changes
• Adjusted aircraft with cannons with anti-armor >39 to greatly increase their likelihood of targeting
AFVs.

---

V1.03.05 – 13th October 2023
Bug Fixes and AI Improvements
• Fixed a bug in the hit chances for Air to Ground attacks on armored targets. Made additional
adjustments to greatly increase the chance of side armor hits, greatly decrease front armor hits,
and somewhat decreasing top armor hits (the ratio now is 33% top, 50% side, 17% front). Also
downgraded the hit chances of larger bombs (they retain a higher chance to hit and hurt an AFV,
but they will do relatively less than before compared to other weapons).

[...]

• Device.dat file changes:
o 37mm Cannon BK3.7 (0048) – Accuracy increased from 5 to 20.
o 37mm M4 Cannon (0050) – Accuracy increased from 5 to 20.
o 37mm Cannon Ho-203 (0051) – Accuracy increased from 5 to 20.
o 37mm Cannon NS-37 (0574) – Accuracy increased from 4 to 20.
o 40mm Cannon Vickers S (0624) – Accuracy increased from 6 to 20.
o 50mm Cannon BK5 (0638) – Accuracy increased from 6 to 20.
o 75mm Cannon BK7.5 (0639) – Accuracy increased from 10 to 20.

---

V1.03.03 – 29th September 2023
• Aircraft weapons were using penetration value when attacking AFVs when they should have been
using anti-armor value. Fixed.

So there were changes to targeting of AFVs and to Accuracy overall.

---

My point of view is that not AS is the problem, but the sheer number of planes Soviets can bring into the fight. That's completely out of any plausibility. Coordinated strike with 400 planes with cruise speed ranging from 70mph to 260mph? Not in this universe. Hell, max speed of the U-2VS is lower than stall speed of most other Soviet planes.

And I've been down this road before. If the leader is Falaleev, air rating 6 which is "good" for the Soviets, I think it's plausible he could coordinate it. In theory that may be two airfields for 400 planes.

My issue is that anyone can currently do it. Any shlepp with air rating 3 is just as effective. That's what is wrong, at least imho.

I'd also suggest that the army malus that uses a 12 divisor instead of 10 in the first 24 turns could just as easily apply to air leaders.

Not sure how the AIR ratings work exactly other than having vague statements in the Manual which may be interpreted in several ways.

I don't follow why the 88s were not firing, there were three of these AA SUs in the hex. They account for the 27 x 20mm AA.

High level AA does either not shoot that low at all OR it has a vastly lower chance to shoot/hit chance when planes fly that low (I had have a Guide planned on this but since the Edited Scenario for testing died with my SSD I may leave that to others ) .
After all your AA did good and when shooting down mroe people would start to argue that AA historically was actually bad/worse than this.

[tyronec]

I set up another test bed to check AS during the winter.

AS does less interceptions during winter weather, I have not checked it for all the weather conditions however this accounts for why there were only 26 Luftwaffe sorties in this case.
It seems to make no difference as to where in the AS box that the GA is directed as to how much AS intercepts.
The location of the GA strike does make a difference to how many auto-intercept sorties will join the AS. So if you have fighters that are not on an AD nearby, on large airbases, and the GA attack is crossing several friendly controlled hexes, etc. etc. then more of those fighters will join the air combat.

Also while there are zero ops losses for Luftwaffe AS during the summer, there can be ops losses for unopposed AS during the winter.