Low altitude range of Shrike / HARM?

[GeneralVikus]

Hey guys,

I'm trying to conduct realistic SEAD operations, but I don't know much about the Shrike or HARM. In real life, is there a minimum altitude for their use, and what is their range when fired at low altitude?

[FrangibleCover]

That should all be included in the database and the weapons modelling, right? If you can shoot them, shoot them.

The point that Command doesn't model about Shrike is that they use different seeker heads depending on the target, so for complete realism you should decide which radar band each Shrike is seeking when you're arming the aircraft. This makes Shrike very difficult to carry prophylactically and shoot at whatever you find, it requires good prior intelligence.

[thewood1]

Db says 200 ft., if you checked. But there were a lot of little "quirks" with the Shrike around launch profile beyond minimum launch altitude that it would be difficult for CMO to model. Especially as the Shrike was continuously tweaked in it lifecycle. Almost every combat mission saw tweaking to overcome limitations.

The devs have stated that they are considering/working on pre-programmed ARMs where needed. Its a pretty narrow window where those are needed, at least for the US. Mostly Shrikes and AGM-78s from around 1967 to 1975. After that, multiseeker and in flight programmable were more common.

[KLAB]

Db says 200 ft., if you checked. But there were a lot of little "quirks" with the Shrike around launch profile beyond minimum launch altitude that it would be difficult for CMO to model. Especially as the Shrike was continuously tweaked in it lifecycle. Almost every combat mission saw tweaking to overcome limitations.

The devs have stated that they are considering/working on pre-programmed ARMs where needed. Its a pretty narrow window where those are needed, at least for the US. Mostly Shrikes and AGM-78s from around 1967 to 1975. After that, multiseeker and in flight programmable were more common.

For Soviet Russian ARM's the frequency being set on the ground would be highly desirable. Pretty much everything prior to Kypton was decidedly inflexible.

[thewood1]

What I was surprised at was the Shrike was not "set". Either the entire seeker head was replaced or an entire specific missile was used. Multiple variants specific to a certain band were store on site to be mounted based on intelligence. Only a specialized workshop couple swap heads. It wasn't until the B-10 model that multiple bands were available. AGM-78s and AGM-88s have always been adjustable in flight.

[GeneralVikus]

That should all be included in the database and the weapons modelling, right? If you can shoot them, shoot them.

No, it's not included in the weapon modelling. All that matters is whether or not you have line of sight to the target and therefore whether or not you can detect the target's emissions. However, launch altitude has no effect on the range of the missile itself. For example, the range of the HARM is 70 nm, whether it's fired from 6000 ft (the lowest altitude where the enemy can be detected at that range) or 36,000 ft.

[thewood1]

I am pretty sure altitude effect on weapon range was added a long time ago. The devs would have to confirm.

[GeneralVikus]

I am pretty sure altitude effect on weapon range was added a long time ago. The devs would have to confirm.

I tested it yesterday, and it hasn't been added for these weapons.

[Dimitris]

I am pretty sure altitude effect on weapon range was added a long time ago. The devs would have to confirm.

I tested it yesterday, and it hasn't been added for these weapons.

Can we see a specific example save that demonstrates this?

[GeneralVikus]

Can we see a specific example save that demonstrates this?

Load any plane with a HARM in the editor with a SAM site. Descend to 6,000ft and you'll see that you can launch at the edge of the range circle. Ascend to 36,000 ft, and you'll see that the range circle does not change, and you can still launch at the edge of it. I can make a save for you, but it would be pointless.

[boogabooga]

What I was surprised at was the Shrike was not "set". Either the entire seeker head was replaced or an entire specific missile was used. Multiple variants specific to a certain band were store on site to be mounted based on intelligence. Only a specialized workshop couple swap heads. It wasn't until the B-10 model that multiple bands were available. AGM-78s and AGM-88s have always been adjustable in flight.

When the Shrike was the only game in town, there was really only one threat to worry about anyway (Fan Song).

I was under the impression that even the AGM-88 had some band limitations, as in it could not really home in on the "A-band"/VHF for the same reasons (low resolving ability) that VHF is not used for precise targeting radars. Also, the physical size of the antenna that can fit in the missile puts a limit of what bands could be resolved. However, my only source for this is SamSim.

[thewood1]

"When the Shrike was the only game in town, there was really only one threat to worry about anyway (Fan Song)."

The Shrike was the only game in town for a very short time. The AGM-78 was developed within months because the Shrike sucked so badly. The Shrike's main virtue was it cost $7k and could still force radar silence just by being fired. The 78 cost $250k. ROEs forced pilots to hold Standards until all Shrikes were fired.

Also, I'm not sure any ARMs can attack OTH radars in those low bands. I would imagine the size of the entire radar system might require a lot of hits. Its probably easier to hit them with larger and longer ranged weapons if you need to take them out.