New to EDtBTR, help with starting Axis campaign please

[vimhawk2]

Hello all. Put a lot of hours into 12 O'Clock High, and even more into USAAF before that. But new to EDtBTR, only 15 years late, but better late....

I do realise that the long campaign is a major time commitment. For that reason I don't want to make major mistakes at the start. I don't want to find myself weeks down the line thinking that I wish I had started differently because I don't really have the time to keep restarting. I have been trawling the forum for advice, and am sure all the important stuff is in there somewhere, but what I'd really like is some good advice and can't seem to find it.

Advice for example on what production I can change types for, or change to research. Do people go all out for the Me262 for example? It seems to me that it is a massive commitment in engines, and can you spare production today? Is it better to go for a good fighter like the Ta-152 instead, or maybe the earlier attainable Fw190D, because they only need one engine? It seems to me that starting with Me262 under research costs a huge amount of production you might need now. Do 110s have any use as day fighters in the game, or can they be converted to better types? Do you need all that Me109 production?

Anyway, would be very helpful to hear opinions before I wade in, or perhaps even links to threads where this has already been discussed.

Many thanks!

[simovitch]

Hopefully mark Dolby will chime in soon, but in the meantime you can check out this thread by some old schoolers:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 2&t=217876

[mark dolby]

Hi.
Yeah, saw this and thought will reply to this soon.....apologies.

First thing, as mentioned it's a long game so minor mistakes can easily be rectified. Factories take 10 days per level of item change so changing a factory producing 2 engines to a different type takes 20 days, a 6 engine takes 60 days so concentrate on changing the low level factories across the board - engine/frame/parts.

Check the available entry dates for new types and concentrate on the ones you feel best about. For me its the 109G5AS, He219 and 110G4/R7. The G5AS is a little gem - fast, great climb and the only fighter you can get soon to intercept Allied recons. Don't ignore those recons, blind the Allies whenever you can. Plus the stab and factory flights you first equip with this fighter get good experience for downing those recons.

Types to lose IMHO are the Do217 nightfighters, Either the 110 or 410 zerstorer. Keep a few of one type in production as early in the game they can devastate bomber groups with the heavier firepower and rockets. The 110 has better firepower, the 410 stays up for a lot longer. All Italian types - I love all 3 for different attributes but 2 engines for a single seat fighter is too much waste. The SAI207 of which only 12 are available is also a nice little fighter, (I have asked if this production could be added to the game but no joy!) able to get high and fast. It used a home built engine which would make it a single engine for production. The 109G5 and Ga2 can also go. 190F/G. I sometimes keep a single G line going as these fighters have excellent endurance to use in stab flights to hunt damaged bombers.

2nd choice for production are the 109K and 190D. When I say 2nd choice I mean get your 10 lines of research (parts/engines/frames) on the G5AS as priority then choose lines to change to the other 2 types. You will win the game with what you can do now rather than what happens after D-Day.

109 G14. An awkward one as its not really much better than a G5AS but is better than the G6.
Which brings us onto the topic of all those 109's. Yes you need them for a while. I don't change production of the 109G6 on the first turn but wait until the 2nd to see where the losses were coming from. The DB605 engine is used in a lot of different types so keep an eye on that.

The most important thing - a notebook. Make a system that you can quickly refer to so as to save time.

I have won this campaign twice - May and June 1944. The Ta152 by game finish was due to enter service August, the 262 in July. I didn't need them.
109K4 - 1/5/44
190D9 - 29/4/44
109G5AS - 1/11/43

Mark.

[vimhawk2]

Thank you so much for that advice. I am enjoying the game a lot, though I've had a couple of crashes (game not aircraft, had loads of aircraft crash) so now save very often! Enjoying it all apart from the night combat where I am firstly unable to intercept a single bomber command aircraft, and secondly all those aircraft going round in circles seems to slow down my PC far more than day combat. So that could still be a problem even if I discover some miracle interception (and I see from the helpful link to another post that I need to replace all the aircraft with the outdated radar).

I've got my head round how to change production and how everything is related I think. I've done a handy spreadsheet with all the variables in it which helps my brain not explode. It can't handle the retooling stuff, so basically it's just a planning tool, ie once you remove 1 from something you add it to something else. It would be beyond my excel ability to include the actual delays, but it's still helpful.

Your suggestions on which types to bin and which are more useful is very handy. After a few days I was switching out to research 190A8, but you suggest 109G5AS would be better and I'm happy to go with that. I'd already tailored night fighter production/research to He219 (though not sure I'll use them if it slows the computer so much!). I also hadn't thought about intercepting recces (as we say in the UK). You also use the term stab and factory flights, but not quite sure what you mean. Are they those small formations of four aircraft? Otherwise to groups grow to a certain size depending on replacements or does it vary? Presumably those units of four never grow bigger?

You said "Either the 110 or 410 zerstorer", so I should keep one of the day twin engine bomber destroyers. Presumably these are the ones to upgrade the armament on? Hopefully the Allied escorts don't get at them! Speaking of which I'm not being very successful at shooting down Allied aircraft. I tend to target the bombers and presumably the escorts are shooting down my intercepts. But if I just target the escorts will the bombers be attacked at all? And should I just use patrols, because I'm using a lot of ground intercepts. Which leads me to fatigue. Is there a maximum fatigue after which I shouldn't be flying the groups? At the moment the Allies aren't trying to penetrate too far, which means that the groups in France and Southern Italy are getting all the work, so building up fatigue. I know you can switch groups in/out, but I am using all my transfer points to build up AA.

Which brings me onto another subject. Is there a recommended amount of AA for radar stations and airfields? Or is there never too much. Also do the bigger guns on those installations do anything. I tried putting balloons on radar stations but they don't seem to do anything, other than get shot down. Seems quite a waste for the effort of transferring them. Is there any point in having the low calibre stuff on targets deep in Germany that are only going to be bombed from great height?

I thought the two engines for the Italian fighters might have been a typo, but you say it's designed like that. Seems too many resources then. Plus I wanted to rationalise production with fewer types, so it means getting the German allies into the 109Ga models. Which leads to two questions (sorry about all the questions!) Firstly it seems the German allies can only upgrade to 109Ga, so does any other aircraft come later that they can use as well? But also some of the Italian groups do seem to be able to upgrade to the standard German models, so not sure why. Secondly the 109GA2 availability shows as September, yet it seems to be in production at the start of the game. Are these production aircraft actually produced or do they count as 'research' aircraft? Come to think of it three questions (sounding like the Spanish Inquisition sketch now). The third being what happens on Italian surrender and do I get warning of that. Do the Italian groups just disappear and all the aircraft lost, do some of them come back, can I do anything to mitigate this etc?

You also suggest binning the 190F I think. I remember back in the USAAF game the F model was kind of a single engine bomber destroyer and could use rockets. But in this game it doesn't seem that useful. However I see from the timeline that several 190F groups are formed later, and are they still formed if you don't have enough spare aircraft in the pool? Again you mention the G model in terms of 'stab' flights, so certainly need clarification on what they are.

I'll get into your comments about 190K, 190D and G14 at some other time.

I may restart. I've only played a week!

Thanks again for your helpful advice.

[vimhawk2]

Oh, and one more thing. I was just reading the thread that was linked earlier "BtR German A/C production".

In it TaggedYa says in regard to 109G production:
"... because a stockpile of 500 or more of them is the key that unlocks getting the school..."

What does this mean?

[vimhawk2]

Sorry! One more thing he says (and it is the last one!)

He also says
"... you can not reasonably change any of what are referred to as the century units to other aircraft types..."

So what are century units?

Thanks so much in advance!

[Orm]

Axis minor country air formations can switch to Bf 106G-6 if you have more than 500 of those in reserve. Once they are in the Bf 106G-6 they can switch onwards to other plane types without any restrictions.

So I always choose that route with Bulgarians, and Rumanians and so on. Thus I do not produce any Me 109 Ga at all.

[Orm]

Also, be aware that in the '43 campaign the Allied invasion of southern Italy is coming soon, and with it the surrender of Italy. It can be prudent to prepare for that somewhat in advance.

[mark dolby]

Hi.
Each Geshwader had 3 gruppen of @40 aircraft and a HQ flight of 4 aircraft. This is the stabs flight and stays at 4 aircraft. That's all Geshwader including night and heavy units.

Some German aircraft factories had a 'protection flight' which could have reached about 10 A/C and was crewed by test and ferry pilots. In the game these are more 4 plane units.
Use these 4 plane groups to either target recons or damaged heavies. The last game I finished one stab had 2 100+ kill pilots and an 80+ pilot on roster. Also 2 40+ victory dead pilots.

Changing aircraft.
German and Italian units are considered 'major nations' whilst Rumania, Bulgaria etc are 'minor nations'. School units (JGr designation) I think are also classed as 'minor'.
Major nations can use and change any aircraft available.
Minor nations are stuck with the lower tier aircraft. You will see what those are if you try (D520, IAR81 etc). However once 500 of a top tier aircraft (nearly always only 109G6) are in the pool then minor nation units can equip from this pool. Once a minor nation unit has been equipped with a top tier fighter it can then chose to re-equip with any type it likes (except for some reason the R6 addition of gun pods is not allowed to minor units).

AA guns and balloons.
You can and should put copious amounts of light AA at radar stations. The AI believes in knocking out the radar with mediums and FB. Sometimes heavies. 200mg/80-100 20mm/ 50 quad 20mm/ 40 37mm is around where I aim to get to. Not at once as lots of radar but you will see which ones the AI favours and reinforce accordingly. Balloons are great for putting FB off their aim and 20 is a good number with 50 at frequently visited sites. Heavy AA is also required to deter the mediums. 8-12 guns with some of those being 105mm. Bonus effect - every 2 guns or thereabouts comes with a searchlight so possibilities of detecting or hitting some of the night bombers if they go overhead.

In the early part of the game use some of your transportation points to take guns away from Southern Italy before the invasion and occupation of that area.
Keep an eye on rail flak. The computer now tells you when new ones are available at day end - watch for the message and move them to where you want. Heavy trains to factories, light ones to radar for an early boost to defence or to airfields. Airfield light AA should be fairly substantial as well and in proportion to the amount of units (no more than 4) to an airfield. Some heavy can be added if the AI takes a regular interest in a particular site but NEVER add balloons as your own aircraft can hit these (it has been toned down but why take the risk).

Oh yes, bin all the minor types and homegrown aircraft from your production schedules as well. That includes the 5 engine factory in Milan(?). It may take 50 days to re-tool but this needs to be producing German engines.

Doctrine.
Hitting bombers or fighters first option is just that, an option. If a 109 Gruppe, set to take on fighters, comes across bombers it will attack it. If fighters are present but 'beyond' the bombers then those bombers will be attacked again. I do set all my standard 109 and 190 groups to take on the fighters. 110, 410, extra gun pod fighters and sturm fighters (if you build them) are set to go for the bombers. Most of this doctrine will comply, its the fighter on fighter boys who seem to vary their targets the most. As long as they are engaging I don't mind.

Patrol or no patrol.
You have plenty of radar and you can gauge whats coming towards you fairly accurately (if its speed 160-200 its probably bombers, 300 plus then FB or fighters) so no need to patrol. Watch the raid coming in (I use box and line not icons) and time your launch to be at 28-35k just in front of the raid. Most heavies come in at 23-28k so get above them. Don't intercept until 20 or less (I prefer less) miles to save as much fuel as possible for fighting.
Patrol Exception - I've mentioned 2 uses for the stab flight here's a bonus third. Send up that stab to max altitude in front of the bomber stream. A units of 4 109G5AS can sit at 41k and as soon as the heavies pass underneath they will be revealed with numbers and speed and PRECISE altitude. This is the most important factor to allow your Gruppen to come in on their attack runs at the correct height. The stab flight can be moved to keep tabs on the raid. Generally as a rule units 10k above another will not attack so you can keep the stab watching. Also note that this rule applies if you have some aircraft at 20k and a damaged heavy limping home at 7k passes underneath it will not be attacked unless you manually order it. Keep tabs on enemy A/C heights.

BC and night fighting.
This has been vastly overhauled. You start the campaign with 'window' really screwing with interceptions. Units will upgrade to the better sn-220 radar (slowly). Its hard, frustrating and much more difficult to achieve major success at night now but try to have most of your NJG at the target point as interceptions are far more likely after searchlights have revealed a bomber. Don't expect to score much following the stream but not trying is far worse. Many damaged bombers fail to make it home or crash on landing. It might not be a kill for the pilots but its still 1 less bomber.

Italian surrender.
Yes they do. All of them. The best thing I like to do is a couple of days before the surrender is equip the Italians with 2nd rate aircraft and keep any good ones in the pool for use by units still around. I rate those Italian units formed for the RSI though. Give them good types and you will be mildly surprised. I do have 2 30+ kill Italian pilots and many minor nation aces in the 20's. Date of surrender is about 8th or 9th of September. It's after mainland has been invaded.

Mark.

[vimhawk2]

Excellent information, thank you.

Sounds like if I manage to get 109G6 up to 500 then I don't need the Ga versions. Which suggests then not changing that production (at least until the total is achieved) but getting the research aircraft from elsewhere (such as the originally designated G5 and Ga production).

I will try and utilise the 4 aircraft units as you suggest.

That amount of flak at radar and airfields seems insane.... no wonder I wasn't getting results initially with what you start the game with!

The point on fatigue though. What level do you suggest not flying a unit?

Going back to the game now....

[mark dolby]

Hi.
I very rarely suffer with fatigue.Most of my units are fairly well back from the front line. Those forward are generally stab or staffel size units and take less damage on the ground proportionally. And if the Allies target those airfields ramp up the AA and make it a 'flak trap'. In fact if you see certain unoccupied airfields suffering from Allied favouritism then actually station a unit there and up the defences.
You suffer most from damage on the ground so its cheaper to move out a stab than a gruppe.
I quite happily let some areas rely 90% on flak defence to have more fighters in Germany to shoot down more of the bombers. The Allies get @30 USAAF heavies replaced every day so trying to reach and exceed losses of over 30 a day is your goal.

A note on 500 'spare' aircraft.
You have got to 306 109G6 in the pool.
Find 5 Gruppen of G6 that are either far back from the front, need a rest or to change to a different type. Pick each and change to a different type even a 2nd tier aircraft. Thats 200 G6 gone into the pool making the total over the magic 500. Now choose any of you minor or school units and change them to G6. Whilst aircraft go straight into the pool they do not come out for allocation until next day is selected. This means you can equip as many of those minor units as you like, all in fact, on one turn. However this would leave you with a big hole in your defences so choose accordingly. Bare in mind that the turn after you can equip any of the ones you upgraded to other German types to get the G6's back into the pool. Also as you can see what the weather forecast is for the next day it makes sense to do it when bad weather is arriving the next day so your re-equipping units are not missed so much.
This I consider not so much to be a cheat as you have to trade time out of the front line for 5 to a dozen or so units (more if changing staffel size units). Consider it 'risk effective management'.

Mark.

[vimhawk2]

You see? That's why I need to ask these kind of questions. Because considering how obvious it is, I doubt it would have occurred to me to "force" the size of the 109G6 pool to be larger by changing out groups. Although we all have to live by the amount of "gamey" things we do. So for me I'd probably only do one group per day (to make me feel better about doing it).

With 500 G6s I should be able to change over a lot or all of the minor allies out of their inferior (or harder to produce) aircraft and rationalise production. Though this again leads to questions about what happens to Italy, not the least is whether it's worth it to re-equip any of the Italian units with G6s if they are just going to lose those groups.

I know that Italy surrenders, and it's relatively early in the game. I've started moving assets away from southern Italy like the flak. But from what you've said the entire Italian airforce just disappears. This is obviously going to leave me well short down south (although there will be some newly equipped German allies I can ship in). I have some other questions though.

How is the invasion of Italy (and subsequent ground combat in Italy) handled? Does a chunk of Italy suddenly become unusable? Is there a moving front line, or is there another date on which another chunk of Italy is suddenly removed? (Thinking about loss of factories etc.) And incidentally, if you do lose such assets to ground advance, do you get a report of what you lost?

Following from this. Do you get any Italian groups come back? Do you get any aircraft back?

[Orm]

I know that Italy surrenders, and it's relatively early in the game. I've started moving assets away from southern Italy like the flak. But from what you've said the entire Italian airforce just disappears. This is obviously going to leave me well short down south (although there will be some newly equipped German allies I can ship in).

Beware that the minors does not get as many replacement pilots as Germany. So it is easy to get a pilot shortage with those countries. And replacements are not as skilled as German replacements.

I haven't seen an official umber on how fast replacement pilots arrive. Although I have seen unofficial numbers. I think it was considered to make the replacement pilot rate open information in the game, but I am not sure what the result was.

[Orm]

How is the invasion of Italy (and subsequent ground combat in Italy) handled? Does a chunk of Italy suddenly become unusable? Is there a moving front line, or is there another date on which another chunk of Italy is suddenly removed?

The Allies invade in the south and that part of the 'toe' is lost at once. Then the front is retreated a bit every turn until it reach a line somewhere between Rome, and Naples, where the front is stable for a while. Should hold well into 1944.

Sardinia, and then Corsica, will be occupied soon after the invasion of Italy.

[vimhawk2]

Thank you.

[vimhawk2]

And do the Italians come back in any form later?

[Orm]

The Italian squadrons you begin with does not come back. However, you do get some Italian reinforcements after the Italian surrender. You can see them by checking the order of battle. They are the ones with arriving dates that are after the Italian surrender. You can see some of them (all?) in the picture below.

0000.jpg (291.52 KiB) Viewed 1050 times

[vimhawk2]

Thanks again.

I very much look forward to receiving "Asso Di Bastoni". What a great name!

[mark dolby]

Hi.
Ace of Spades, Archer, Red Devils, Iron leg are just some of those Italian names.
Montefusco was the only Italian unit formed after the surrender by its Fascist personnel which did not just 'fold up' and disappear. However as you see it's not available until later on.
F. Baracca was named after the highest scoring Italian ace of WW1. His plane insignia was the 'prancing pony' given by his widow to Ferrari for their cars!
I love the Italian units.

Cannot exactly recall the pilot numbers but I think 15 German and 10 split between the others per turn. There is an upper cap for the Germans of 125 pilots held in reserve if you can keep yours healthy, not sure about a cap for the minors.

As an aside there is a great book called 'Air war Italy' which follows all the events from 4/6/44 to the end of the war from the Axis side. Great eye opener for the exploits of the Italians.

Mark.

[simovitch]

I am enjoying the game a lot, though I've had a couple of crashes

The game should be fairly stable, please report crashes in tech support with a description of the crash, OS version (not really tested for W11...) if you are running dxwnd, etc.

Thanks