[FIXED] Gabriel Missiles don't have a radar seeker

[HalfLifeExpert]

So I became aware of this after trying to replicate it for a Steam user, see here:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1076160/ ... 621465784/

The Gabriel missiles used in the Standalone scenario "Battle of Latakia, 1973" as well as their neighboring variants in the CWDB do not have active radar seekers, making them completely ineffective.

[boogabooga]

https://github.com/PygmalionOfCyprus/cmo-db-requests

[HalfLifeExpert]

https://github.com/PygmalionOfCyprus/cmo-db-requests

This isn't a case of a request, it's a fix that needs to happen because they previously did have Radar seekers, the DB description even refers to it as "Semi-radar active"

At some point in the DB updates, these missiles lost their radars.

[boogabooga]

I've looked into this a little bit:

1) Semi-active radar means that it would need a passive radar seeker, not active.

2) That doesn't really matter because as far as I can tell, Gabriel I has ALWAYS (since CMANO) been modeled as command-guided- without any kind of radar seeker. According to the General Description in the database, this is a correct possibility (optical sight plus joystick).

3) Command Guidance in general seems to have become less reliable, with many missiles overshooting the target without triggering an endgame calculation. Not just Gabriel; I can see this with Bullpups as well. Having said that, hits are still possible.

Attached demos for both Bullpup and Gabriel I engagements for evaluation.

I tried a similar scenario in my old CMANO install, and the command-guided Gabriel I seemed to work well.

[blu3s]

Command-guided missiles don't have a radar seeker.

We're checking the performance of the Gabriel missile but have in mind that Command-guided solutions have a lower PoH compared to other guidance types


Logged 0015541

[thewood1]

From the book, "The Boats of CHerbourg"

"Unlike conventional shells, missiles were not in the lap of the gods once fired but could be manipulated by one or both sides while in the air. The small radar in the Gabriel missile itself would lock on a target “illuminated” by the large radar on the launch vessel — the fire-control radar. The missile would “ride the beam” provided by the fire-control radar until about halfway to target, at which point the missile’s own radar would take over the homing and free the radar on the boat to guide another missile. The side being attacked, if it had an EW system, could attempt to baffle the incoming missiles with false signals. However, should the enemy attempt to do this to the Gabriel, the operator on the launch vessel could take back command from the radar on the missile, override the jamming, and steer the missile to target."

This is the Gabriel I. Later Gabriels had active radar all the way.

[HalfLifeExpert]

Thanks for having a look.

The performance of the Gabriels in the classic Latakia scenario clearly had a massive drop in performance, as reported by that original Steam user, which I checked.

The actual engagements were extremely one-sided in favor of the Israelis, with the IDF Ships not even receiving a scratch, and at Latakia, all Syrian ships sunk.

Smart play of the scenario allowed the player to replicate this, but now, the Gabriels are pretty much useless. I couldn't score a single hit! In several cases, the missiles, while skimming the sea, just flew right past the targets without even trying to maneuver to hit.

I've read the book cited above a few times, and it's on my almost-mandatory reading list for Command. The early Gabriels were Semi-active, in that the launching source could guide the missile most of the way to the target, but at close distance, control was given over to the active seeker. The fire control on a ship could command guide the Gabriel all the way to the target, and that's how they would be used against land targets, but they definitely need the active seeker for Anti-Ship salvos.

Afterall, that's how the opposing Styx missiles worked, but in 1973, the IDF Navy skillfully used ECM and Chaff against them, wheras the Syrians didn't have an effective response to the Gabriel.

[blu3s]

Sorry I forgot to include active in Command guided missiles don't have active radar seeker.

[thewood1]

Sorry I forgot to include active in Command guided missiles don't have active radar seeker.

I'm totally confused now.

Screenshot 2024-02-07 160211.jpg (397.53 KiB) Viewed 1902 times

This is the Gabriel 5 and it has an active radar. The Gabriel I should have one.

[thewood1]

There is definitely something wrong with the Gabriel. Every single one misses. I noted that there is no, as in none, illumination from either the firing ship or from the Gabriel. One of them has to illuminate.

I have added the scenario and log file.

Note the log file has a whole bunch of Weapon messages that make no sense.

Screenshot 2024-02-07 161608.jpg (237.57 KiB) Viewed 1896 times

[thewood1]

Same issue in the Shifting Sands scenario "The Hunter".

[blu3s]

This is the Gabriel 5 and it has an active radar. The Gabriel I should have one.

As you can see Gabriel 5 is not a Command guided missile, but an INS + DL midcourse + ARH so hence the Acitve Radar.

The issue on the Gabriel 1 is being investigated.


Let me explain a bit about the difference guided systems and how they are implemented in Command. Seems to be a little confusion about them.

Command guided: This was one of the first methods of missile guidance, alongside Beam Rider Guidance. It's based on a station that tracks both a target and a missile. The tracking data from both radars are fed into a ground-based computer that calculates the paths of the two vehicles. Communication between the ground station and the target was usually done via radio, making the system easier to jam. This was simulated in CMO like SARH but with a penalty on PoH. Ex: SA-2, SA-3



Then me move into Homing Guidance.

There are diferent types of homing guidance, passive, active and semi-active.



Semi-active homing guidance

SARH (Semi Active Radar Homing): This system relies on the reflection of the wave on the target from a fire control radar onto a receiver in the missile. This is often called a passive radar or passive seeker. It's the missile that processes the reflections and makes the corrections in flight. Example: SA-10, RIM-162D




TVM: This system is similar to SARH in that the missiles also have a passive seeker. However, the difference lies in the fact that the reflections from the target's illumination are not processed within the missile but are transmitted to the ground station instead. The ground station performs the calculations and then transmits the data back to the missile. So this has the advantage of a lower cost missile. Example: Patriot PAC-2



Passive Homing Guidance
The passive radar homing relies on some form of energy that is transmitted by the target and can be tracked by the missile seeker, like radar waves (Anti-Radiation missiles, Kh-58), infrared waves (Sidewinder), or sound waves (passive torpedoes)




Active Homing Guidance

Active homing operates in a manner similar to semi-active homing, with the key difference being that the missile itself both emits and detects the tracking signals, eliminating the need for an external source. This autonomy allows active homing missiles to be referred to as "fire-and-forget" systems, as the launching aircraft is not required to maintain target illumination once the missile has been fired. Ex: AIM-120D, SM-6, AA-12





Note that all of the homing guidance in modern times are mixed with midcourse corrections via Datalinks, INS/GPS etc.

Ref:
https://aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/q0187.shtml
http://www.tpub.com/fcv2/11.htm

[thewood1]

I know what an active radar. The point is that you said active radars weren't in command.

"Sorry I forgot to include active in Command guided missiles don't have active radar seeker"

I think this statement is very confusing. Thats why I put the example of the Gabriel 5 up.

And my quote from the book states that the Gabriel I has active radar, SAHR, and command guidance. Thats a db issue.

[blu3s]

I know what an active radar. The point is that you said active radars weren't in command.

"Sorry I forgot to include active in Command guided missiles don't have active radar seeker"

I think this statement is very confusing. Thats why I put the example of the Gabriel 5 up.

And my quote from the book states that the Gabriel I has active radar, SAHR, and command guidance. Thats a db issue.

Are you confusing command guided missiles with Command Modern Operations? Ok it's my fault to use a capital letter on Command, apologies for the confusion (I have to remember not to write from my phone at night! )

That command relates to my previous statement:

Command-guided missiles don't have a radar seeker.

That it's true IRL but not true in Command Modern Operations.

[HalfLifeExpert]

Ah, I see now. Thanks for the breakdown on command guidance. This makes sense.

Now the issue with the early Gabriel missiles needs to be sorted out, as they should be working as intended based on this information

Sounds to me kind this may be an issue with command guided weapons as a whole

[ClaudeJ]

Regarding the DB issue about Gabriel I (and II) type of guidance, it has been documented: Israel, Gabriel I, II. Guidance. (+Export) · Issue #4293 · PygmalionOfCyprus/cmo-db-requests. (TLDR; it has a terminal semiactive guidance.)

The, separate, CLOS has been logged, as far as I understand.

[boogabooga]

Sounds to me kind this may be an issue with command guided weapons as a whole

Yes, I already showed that in the 4th post with the attached scenarios. The Bullpup is basically having the same issue.

Edit:
And this is probably the same issue-
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0&t=401496

[Dimitris]

There is a general issue with command-guided missiles (like Gabriel I, wonder-weapon of Latakia) and their guidance. The problem has been identified and fixed, and the fix will be included on the next update release, coming soon.

[HalfLifeExpert]

There is a general issue with command-guided missiles (like Gabriel I, wonder-weapon of Latakia) and their guidance. The problem has been identified and fixed, and the fix will be included on the next update release, coming soon.

Great! Thanks and can't wait!

[CV60]

According to Friedman, Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapon Systems, pg. 230, the Gabriel evolved from the Luz, which was command guided. The Gabriel, while being a semi-active homing missile, retained this capability so it is technically capable of both command and semi-active guidance. Because there is no room in the missile nose for a radar, it likely uses the two antenna on the missile sides (each with a 5-6 degree wide scan sector) and a lobing technique to keep the missile on target. According to Friedman:

"The two man OGR7/d director is slaved to an RTN-10X or EL/M-222 conical scan radar, which tracks the targe. One operator launches the missile, then uses a joystick to gather it into the guidance beam by commanding it into the center of a circle etched on stabilized binoculars. Te may continue to track the missile's tail flare to check its response to guidance command The other [operator] tracks the target as a backup to the radar. The missile is a beam-rider. When it gets close enough to the target, it is commanded to shift to semiactive radar homing. If the target jams, the missile seeker can be turned off and th h missile will attempt to ride the beam all the way into the target...[In command back up mode], one operator tracks the flare in the missile tail, the other the target;..."