[Q] Air to Air Missiles

[jeff.flinchum]

I have been playing the Scenario Straits of Blood 2029 version 4.

In doing so I have noticed that when launching an automated air to air engagement using missiles, I have a much higher miss ratio than the computer. My aircraft will not fire a missile until the target aircraft is approximately ½ the distance between max range and my aircraft.

When a missile is launch by aircraft cruising at 50,000 ft the missile will immediately ascend to nearly 100,000 feet every time and will over fly the target.

In order to better the odds I have to send my aircraft to minimum altitude and then launch missiles. This only occurs with radar guided/type missiles. The heat seeker missiles seem to go straight to the target. Even launching from an altitude lower than the target aircraft the missiles will still ascend.

I understand this logic if launching from max range but not as close as the target is allowed to get before launching missiles. As a result of this my hit ratio is much lower than the computer AI aircraft and the percentages that show for these weapon systems.

I feel like I am missing a setting somewhere in the game or just not conducting my air-to-air engagements correctly. The other option is the scenario, but I posted in another area of the forum, and it was suggested that I post here in case there is a bug that needs to correct.

I am currently using Command Build #1328.12

My OS is Windows 11 Home, Version #10.0.22621, Build # 22621.

I have attached the most recent save file for this scenario.

Please let me know if you need additional information.

Jeff

[boogabooga]

Shameless plug, but your question is exactly why I developed the A2A BVR Duel series of quick battles (Find them in the Quick Battle section). Use the 2022 set to try to recreate the battle that you are having trouble with. All of the important doctrine choices are there, including firing ranges (1/2 of max range is what the community scenarios default to these days, but that is actually a variable you can adjust). See what works best for you.

On first blush, when lofting AIM-120Ds from an F-22 at 60,000ft against a MiG-29 at 35nm range, it seemed to be important for the F-22 to maintain radar lock to help guide the missile through that long distance. So that means 'crank' might be a better choice than "crank and drag", etc.

[blu3s]

I don't see any issues testing AIM-120D. I've tried against a different PLAAF and everything it's working fine. I've played that particular scenario and I didn't encounter any issues with A2A engagements.

A note for the future: upload a scenario with lot of units and without an air combat in the next few minutes, does not help to isolate the issue, best way if you just save the game before the A2A engament take place so we can see specifically what's happening.

Thanks

[jeff.flinchum]

Shameless plug, but your question is exactly why I developed the A2A BVR Duel series of quick battles (Find them in the Quick Battle section). Use the 2022 set to try to recreate the battle that you are having trouble with. All of the important doctrine choices are there, including firing ranges (1/2 of max range is what the community scenarios default to these days, but that is actually a variable you can adjust). See what works best for you.

On first blush, when lofting AIM-120Ds from an F-22 at 60,000ft against a MiG-29 at 35nm range, it seemed to be important for the F-22 to maintain radar lock to help guide the missile through that long distance. So that means 'crank' might be a better choice than "crank and drag", etc.

Thank you for this information. I will try the quick battles that you reference. I am not familiar with the crank vs crank and drag that you are referencing so I will do some follow-up on this to educate myself. I am realizing just how in-depth this game is and amazed at how technical it is. So much so that I hate to call it a game.

Thank you again.

Jeff

[jeff.flinchum]

I don't see any issues testing AIM-120D. I've tried against a different PLAAF and everything it's working fine. I've played that particular scenario and I didn't encounter any issues with A2A engagements.

A note for the future: upload a scenario with lot of units and without an air combat in the next few minutes, does not help to isolate the issue, best way if you just save the game before the A2A engament take place so we can see specifically what's happening.

Thanks

Thank for taking the time to look at my questions. If I may ask how did your A2A engagements turn out? Did you launch more missiles to get kills than the AI? The only reason that I ask is so that I can narrow down my research/education of myself on this very detailed and in-depth game. I am finding that my knowledge of how this game works and to be successful is very limited.

Thank you for the information and your time.

Jeff

[blu3s]

In my test (4 vs 4, "face to face", Radar ON on both sides and firing at NEZ) I get around a 40-43% of kills against different PLAAF aircrafts

I've used the professional version to obtain the data but the behaviour it's similar on both versions and I don't use any Pro feature in the scenario.

Untitled.png (19.09 KiB) Viewed 654 times

[jeff.flinchum]

In my test (4 vs 4, "face to face", Radar ON on both sides and firing at NEZ) I get around a 40-43% of kills against different PLAAF aircrafts

I've used the professional version to obtain the data but the behaviour it's similar on both versions and I don't use any Pro feature in the scenario.

Untitled.png

I just saw your post, you sir are like a genius guru. I am going to study your graph and information so I may have more questions after I examine it if you don't mind.

Thanks again for the information.

Jeff

[thewood1]

Instead of studying one post, I would search "NEZ" and "lofting". There was a ton of info put in those post from the devs.

[boogabooga]

NEZ engagement dynamics have changed a little since finite aircraft acceleration was added and made missiles harder to outrun. Those old discussions could use an update...I still use 40-50% max range for BVR.

[blu3s]

My scen was a quite particular case to show that there's no issue with AIM-120D, that they don't miss by default.

You should adapt your tactics to the combat enviroment, take advantage of stealth platforms, AEWs, altitudes...

[Tcao]

My scen was a quite particular case to show that there's no issue with AIM-120D, that they don't miss by default.

You should adapt your tactics to the combat enviroment, take advantage of stealth platforms, AEWs, altitudes...

Are you using the default "2 missiles per target" WRA? If so that should explain the relatively large amount of petered out.

Thx

[jeff.flinchum]

Instead of studying one post, I would search "NEZ" and "lofting". There was a ton of info put in those post from the devs.

Thank you, I will add that to my growing list. I am learning that I really don't much about this software. I find that a little embarrassing since I have been playing for several years now.

Thank you again.

[jeff.flinchum]

NEZ engagement dynamics have changed a little since finite aircraft acceleration was added and made missiles harder to outrun. Those old discussions could use an update...I still use 40-50% max range for BVR.

I have mine set at 75% so I will change that and see how it plays out.

Thank you.

[jeff.flinchum]

My scen was a quite particular case to show that there's no issue with AIM-120D, that they don't miss by default.

You should adapt your tactics to the combat enviroment, take advantage of stealth platforms, AEWs, altitudes...

I am learning to use my AEW more efficiently as well as the UAVs. I am also learning that when two stealth platforms come up against each other I need to learn more about how to deploy mine because the AI seems to score more kills than I do.

I am also learning how to deploy my aerial refueling assets. Interesting thought about this is I have began to wonder that if there were ever a conflict in the South China Sea how critical these assets would be and does the USAF have enough. Just a thought.

Thanks again for the information.

[jeff.flinchum]

My scen was a quite particular case to show that there's no issue with AIM-120D, that they don't miss by default.

You should adapt your tactics to the combat enviroment, take advantage of stealth platforms, AEWs, altitudes...

Are you using the default "2 missiles per target" WRA? If so that should explain the relatively large amount of petered out.

Thx

I would have to say that I am probably using the default because I just learned yesterday where to adjust this and now, I am looking at making changes to default settings to see how this plays out.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I will definitely be making this change.

Thanks again.

[blu3s]

My scen was a quite particular case to show that there's no issue with AIM-120D, that they don't miss by default.

You should adapt your tactics to the combat enviroment, take advantage of stealth platforms, AEWs, altitudes...

Are you using the default "2 missiles per target" WRA? If so that should explain the relatively large amount of petered out.

Thx

I think that yes, but as you see most of the times you'll need at least two missiles to kill the target.

[Tcao]

My scen was a quite particular case to show that there's no issue with AIM-120D, that they don't miss by default.

You should adapt your tactics to the combat enviroment, take advantage of stealth platforms, AEWs, altitudes...

Are you using the default "2 missiles per target" WRA? If so that should explain the relatively large amount of petered out.

Thx

I think that yes, but as you see most of the times you'll need at least two missiles to kill the target.

Ah, thx.
IMHO, from a statistical perspective, I believe it would be better to change the WRA to "1 missile for 1 target." By this way, the chart can clearly show how many missiles petered out due to specific reasons.

These specific reasons include:

1, aircraft defensive maneuvering caused the FCR/Missile seeker failed to lock-on.
2, Severely damaged aircraft disintegrating in the air before subsequent missile hits.
3, Potential bugs (this is the most crucial aspect to pay attention to).