Teekan are OP since update

[rustyj]

I've started three games at extreme and chaotic levels since the latest update and the Teeken are so far ahead of everyone it's not funny - on research, planet colonisation and fleet size. This was not the case prior to the update. I spend most of the game with negative cash flow because I have to try to expand too fast to try to catch up and can't really afford to build fleets to match until end game. It becomes a slugfest between two large empires. In that situation the AI usually wins or it becomes an ungodly grind taking over 150 of the enemy's colonies. Can anyone else confirm this?

Has anyone else played a game at Extreme since the update. What has been the outcome?

[fruitgnome]

I would like to test your savegame.

[rustyj]

I would like to test your savegame.

Thanks for the offer. I would have to email it? It will be too big to attach.

Not sure what you are testing as there are two issues, the runaway early game of the Teekans since the update, and the late game scenario where it is impossible to win against the AI in the event of one side having to conquer the other. Do you want early and late game saves, or are you able to recreate the early game from the one late game save?

[fruitgnome]

Early game. When colonization begins.
https://www.file-upload.net/en/

Or later one if you don't have an early.

[boolybooly]

I remember similar problems with Ackdarians in DW1.

In that case it turned out that the start system was generated with a wealthy continental planet as well as a race specific planet, in that case Ocean, in Teekans case it might be Sandy Desert.

What happened was the Ackdarians mined the continental planet ASAP and got a big boost from resources as it was a starter world so had useful stuff. In effect they had two starter worlds, then they would colonise it as well and be way ahead of other races.

This was because the start system generation used the Human generation template but forgot to remove the continental starter world.

So it may be worth looking at the start system and see what is happening in DW2, see if the same method was used.

[Teyren]

Well, it actually just so happens that Teekans get a second starter planet in their home system just for story being enabled, this combined with their overall highest available habitability rating is what I believe leads to this "early game rush". This translates into a lot of ships they can pay the maintenance for, ships they usually don't do much with on lower difficulties, allowing more aggressive factions to overtake them. Hilariously, one thing more OP than Teekans would probably be Ikkuro who find Teekans early to colonize everything for them.

[rustyj]

I have played a few games since my whinge about the Teekans being OP. I realised that I was starting with only 9 empires because I was on a 700 star map. I thought this was a logical move, but I may have been introducing other factors into the game. Since changing the number of empires from 9 back to the normal 12 I have not been able to replicate the issue, which is interesting in itself.

I have won every game since the change. Does changing the number of empires change the dynamics. It would certainly affect expansion rates. But as to why the Teekan were OP in the more spaced out games I can only guess. It may come back to the Teekan having the extra starting planet and getting a leg up in a more spaced out game.

Certainly the level of aggression from other empires would be dialled back.

[Nightskies]

Yes, sir, it sounds like a cop-out, but everything in galaxy creation impacts what empire will be the dominating power in the galaxy. There usually will be one to three, maybe more in giant galaxies (that I don't play and wouldn't know).

The Dhayut's excellent ability to get fast hyperdrive quickly goes a long way to help them snatch more independents first and gives them an edge in a war when colonies are spread out. The Boskara's ships and troops are powerful, and they're inclined to use them. The Gizureans grow frighteningly fast and invest heavily in warships early. The Ackdarians, Ikkuro, and Humans can get crazy-rich colonies. The Quameno's powerful tech can see them defeat an aggressive hostile, ending up feeding them and setting them up for great power. The Haakonish can thrive in a galaxy of aggression, being less hated than most, but aggressive enough to take targets of opportunity.

Likewise, they have weaknesses. The Teekan tend to focus on low-DPS weapons, and when lacking good fighters, they can struggle in total war. The Boskara are overaggressive and can end up in war with everyone around them with no allies. The Dhayut can overexpand and similarly end up vulnerable to aggression from multiple empires. The Quameno can be too passive and end up content with too little. Humans can botch their diplomatic advantage by invading independents and getting into war too early for them to contend with an aggressive neighbor. The Ikkuro suffer from extended wars. The Gizureans can strain their fuel supply with spread-out colonies with an oversized navy, crippling their offensive capability if their enemies can thwart their initial invasions.

Then there's plain good luck. A Gizurean situated in the center of a regular galaxy next to an Ackdarian and Ikkuro independent is going to be very strong, especially if not close to a Boskara or Mortalen empire.

And everyone is similarly vulnerable to bad luck, like with nebulae. This restricts them from expanding or being able to target their neighbors or independents, or potentially choking them from getting their hands on a critical resource, or enough Caslon. They might wake up Mortakosh or the Swarm early, which cripples their navy and home system. I still see AI empires occasionally start in storms, dooming them to defeat from the start.

The only race I haven't seen hit the top 3 is the Zenox, though I may have simply failed to find the kind of setup they can thrive in. Under player control, however, they are plenty strong- a contender for being my favorite, falling behind only because of the races with updated features. Similarly from my experience, I can agree that Teekans tend to be contenders for power, but the Dhayut, Boskara, and Gizureans are the usual suspects for the top position. Before the updates and DLCs, Haakonish were also regularly strong powers in my galaxies.

The point is, no matter what setup you do, some races will tend to do better with it than others. Even in trying to create a perfectly balanced galaxy that avoids emphasizing any race's strengths, you'll be hitting weak points. Play to that and plan a galaxy that provides (or denies) the strengths of AI empires- and omit races to see your designed galaxy build into an experience!

I think it is best to explore that yourself instead of taking a recommended galaxy setup. For example, I enjoy challenging overpowering empires, seeking to hit them where it hurts most while executing damage control, and making opportunistic assaults on lesser empires for profit when I feel unprepared for larger empires. That means lots of Manual control, and *some* cheese, though I prefer to minimize the amount of cheese needed to win.

[rustyj]

I have since worked out a strategy that is pretty effective, for me at least, against stronger opponents. I tended to build big powerful fleets and run them manually. Against an equal or larger faction, irrespective of race, I was getting overwhelmed and eventually overpowered.

What seems to work extremely well is running as many raiding fleets on auto as I can - 4-5 times the number of the large large fleets. This counters the fleet flooding strategies of the AI very effectively. Many a time I would see a notification about an invasion or attack, send a large fleet, only to find 1 or even 2 of my raiding fleets already there waiting for the attack. So the AI does pretty well with the auto raiding fleets.

I now only bother to send a large fleet if the enemy faction has amassed several of its own large fleets for a powerful drive.

Also I have begun actively targetting the enemy's hexadorium to limit fleet replacements which seems to work.

[OrnluWolfjarl]

I have since worked out a strategy that is pretty effective, for me at least, against stronger opponents. I tended to build big powerful fleets and run them manually. Against an equal or larger faction, irrespective of race, I was getting overwhelmed and eventually overpowered.

What seems to work extremely well is running as many raiding fleets on auto as I can - 4-5 times the number of the large large fleets. This counters the fleet flooding strategies of the AI very effectively. Many a time I would see a notification about an invasion or attack, send a large fleet, only to find 1 or even 2 of my raiding fleets already there waiting for the attack. So the AI does pretty well with the auto raiding fleets.

I now only bother to send a large fleet if the enemy faction has amassed several of its own large fleets for a powerful drive.

Also I have begun actively targetting the enemy's hexadorium to limit fleet replacements which seems to work.

Thanks for this post. I'd like to test it. What automation settings did you use for your fleets?

I've tried doing this with small defense fleets but didn't work that effectively.

[rustyj]

Thanks for this post. I'd like to test it. What automation settings did you use for your fleets?

I've tried doing this with small defense fleets but didn't work that effectively.

Sorry about delay in responding. I may have confused you with my use of the term 'defense' fleets, mixing up template and role references.

I needed a strategy to counter the volume of fleets the AI was sending against me. And the circumstance that while I was attacking one large faction every other faction that could would declare war on me at the same time. I couldn't do it manually, so it made sense for the AI to do it for me.

My large manual fleets, the ones I bombard planets and send against other large fleets are also used as Defense role fleets for large enemy attacks. They usually start out as primarily defense role early-mid game and are so-named by the game as Defense fleets because that was the original template. But I don't really use them as defense fleets. They consist of 10 destroyers and 10 battleships - blasters, phasers for shield bypass, and one bombard weapon slot - (largest hulls, maxed out weapons, upgraded to heck). My computer system is underpowered and I seem to do better without carriers. Also having just 2 hull types for upgrading is easier. I work towards having about 30 of these fleets - very much needed when multiple factions declare war.

I usually use 2-3 of these manual fleets in a battlegroup to bombard planets and destroy ships around those planets, particularly early in a campaign to fight off strong enemy fleets. I will basically only invade one in four planets to establish an area of influence to prevent other factions coming in and snatching space. The other 3 of 4 planets I will bombard to nothing and then establish new colonies with terraforming at my leisure. I typically will have 4 or more battlegroups operating at one time, in a way that extends my space control along a single front. I take over all mining in a system immediately. I find the smaller AI strike fleets do a good job at mopping up and repelling incursions into this conquered space, leaving me to move forward with big manual fleet deployments.

Note it is currently easier to bombard a planet that has the tier 2 shields to bare rock, even if it takes a while. That wasn't always the case and I don't know if it will change. However several large fleets will destroy enough troops fairly quickly for you to invade.

The rest of the large manual fleets are strategically placed to be rapid response. It helps if you get the hyperjump supertech (wormhole drive?), otherwise hit the hell out of the bonus upgrades.

I set 30-40 AI strike fleets each consisting of 3 battleships (no bombard slot) to Attack mode (but maybe Raid will achieve the same thing) 50% fuel range, very tight formation, sprinkled throughout the empire. I do not set these to Defend role except in rare circumstances where I need one to guard a new vulnerable colony and I am fully extended with my larger fleets. These strike fleets will just roam about defending attacking enemy fleets and destroying bases without my input.

The small AI strike fleets also provide an initial buffer against multiple surprise war declarations. However you can tell when a faction is about to declare because gifting has a reduced impact.


What I find is that these new warring factions (usually, but not always, smaller) will focus an initial attack consisting of a large bulk of their fleets, particularly invasion fleets, at a single point. I try to anticipate that point and set up a couple of my manual battlegroups to ambush them. This cripples them somewhat. What I do then is send a couple of large battlegroups to bombard their capitals and other close in systems. I don't bother with setting up colonies or invading. I am trying to panic them into declaring peace. This strategy always works. Once they declare for peace (may become vassal) I resume activities against my initial antagonist.

I make certain my small AI strike fleets are larger than their strike fleets and depending on your weapons level, you may need more than 3 battleships to achieve this. However the AI will also coordinate multiple strike fleets to counter a large enemy fleet, if those strike fleets are available. (This is why you have to have so many of them).

What I haven't said up till now is that it is important to chase all the research end points ie galaxy only research and target planet with research and production facilities for bombardment or invasion. This increases your own research and obviously cripples the enemy's research and production. I target the strongest faction and try to whittle it down. The other factions are usually much weaker in terms of research production and this eventually will tell in their fleet strengths because they are slower to get high end research.

Using supertech such as the wormhole drive will help a lot at the highest levels of the game, but not necessary.

At all interaction points you have to have naval superiority, even if your fleets one on one are even. I use battlegroups to help with this. If their battlegroup is bigger and they are attacking infrastructure, let them have it. Focus on taking out invasion fleets. Focus on diminishing the enemy's ability to replenish their fleets quickly.

In interactions where you do not have superiority or it is more balanced I manually direct each fleet to attack a mass of ships on a ship by ship basis (usually the largest or closest whichever is more strategic). In some cases I will direct multiple fleets to attack a single ship on a ship by ship basis. This will result in less damage to your fleets compared with letting the AI choose multiple targets at once.

For control of the battlespace, focus on denying the other faction access to space and resources in areas you have already conquered by taking control of mining operations and planets along a single contiguous front as quickly as possible.

Long explanation, but I think necessary because it is all interlinked. I hope I have adequately explained. This works for me, others may have better strategies, but I don't think many play Chaotic because there is not much discussion about it.

What you can get away with at the lower levels won't necessarily work at the highest levels of the game. However my strategies at the highest levels work to excess at eg normal, and I usually end up with 95% victory conditions without even finishing the research table.

[twent]

...
My large manual fleets, the ones I bombard planets

This was a very helpful post, thank you.

Due to the game updates since you wrote this, as of mid 2024, are there any additions/changes worth mentioning?