The SAM mount shoots in the wrong direction

[Roman5018]

There are 2 SA-N-4 mount on the cruiser Moskva. One protects the port side, and the other protects the starboard side. In addition, each of the mounts has its own illumination radar, working in the same arc as the mount itself. However, during the reflection of a missile attack, both mounts shoot in one direction, as well as both radars illuminate targets from one side, which is impossible. For some reason, at a distance of less than 5 nautical miles, the mount and the radar on the opposite side stop working, and everything becomes correct. I believe this is a bug. My save file contains the moment a few minutes before the missiles were detected. The defense was carried out manually

Screenshot385.png (594.29 KiB) Viewed 853 times

The SAM mount shoots in the wrong direction.rar

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[blu3s]

Hi Roman5018,

Yes the behaviour you observe is correct, a SAM can fire a target incoming from outside of the mount arc if it's over 5nmi, you can launch and redirect the SAM in the opposite direction.

Below that distance the SAM is "blanked-out".

[Roman5018]

Hi Roman5018,

Yes the behaviour you observe is correct, a SAM can fire a target incoming from outside of the mount arc if it's over 5nmi, you can launch and redirect the SAM in the opposite direction.

Below that distance the SAM is "blanked-out".

Hi, blu3s

No, this is definitely incorrect.

The SA-N-4 is a short-range air defense system. The missile does not have the ability to turn 180 degrees after launch and hit the target from the opposite side. But even if it had such an opportunity, it is impossible to provide guidance.

The cruiser Moskva has 2 illumination radars, but they are located on different sides. Accordingly, the radar on the starboard side cannot highlight targets on the left side. Since the 9M33 is a radio command missile, it constantly needs to be in the radar field of view to calculate and transmit control commands. As a result, all this means that it is impossible to use both mounts in the same direction.

This part of the combat mechanics needs to be redesigned. It will be enough to simply remove the possibility of firing outside the mount's operating sector. Well, or make it more than 5 miles so that it does not affect the short-range air defense system. And I think that a radar that is physically located on the opposite side of the ship should not be able to engage a target through the ship without a direct line of sight to the target, regardless of the range. My screenshot shows that both radars highlight targets, since each of them can only highlight one target.

I hope I was able to convey to you that this is a mistake.

[Schr75]

Hi Roman

What Blu3s means is that beyond 5nm, CMO ignores mount arcs as it is assumed that the ships captain will turn the ship to unmask the mount (page 250 in the manual).

Søren

[Roman5018]

Hi Roman

What Blu3s means is that beyond 5nm, CMO ignores mount arcs as it is assumed that the ships captain will turn the ship to unmask the mount (page 250 in the manual).

Søren

Hi, Schr75

In fact, this game mechanics allows you to do impossible things. While in reality this ship can shoot down only 1-2 missiles using the only available SAM mount, in CMO the defensive power of the ship is almost doubled. It takes one minute to turn the ship around. As part of repelling a missile attack, this is an eternity, there can be no talk of any "micromaneuvers" here. It's okay when the Harpoon flies out from the side of the ship, and then turns 90 degrees, but anti-aircraft missiles must be deprived of this opportunity

[lumiere]

BTW, these links will help you to recreate the loss of Moskva in Command:
https://command.matrixgames.com/?p=5349
https://web.archive.org/web/20231205014 ... the-moska/

And:
https://command.matrixgames.com/?p=2793

[blu3s]

We'll check this particular issue, but by default that's the behaviour of blanked out mounts in Command.

Have a nice weekend.

[Dimitris]

Hi Roman

What Blu3s means is that beyond 5nm, CMO ignores mount arcs as it is assumed that the ships captain will turn the ship to unmask the mount (page 250 in the manual).

Søren

Hi, Schr75

In fact, this game mechanics allows you to do impossible things. While in reality this ship can shoot down only 1-2 missiles using the only available SAM mount, in CMO the defensive power of the ship is almost doubled. It takes one minute to turn the ship around. As part of repelling a missile attack, this is an eternity, there can be no talk of any "micromaneuvers" here. It's okay when the Harpoon flies out from the side of the ship, and then turns 90 degrees, but anti-aircraft missiles must be deprived of this opportunity

"Over-the-shoulder" SAM shots are possible IRL, with enough slack distance (hence the 5nm threshold). During Desert Storm, a RN Type 42 destroyer engaged an incoming Iraqi AShM on what nominally would be a blanked-out bearing for the Sea Dart launcher. The SAM was launched at the nearest possible bearing-to-target (edge of valid mount arc) and then almost immediately "turned around the corner" to engage and destroy the incoming missile.

Directors however should not have this capability, and if you have observed an illuminator painting "through the superstructure" then this needs to be investigated.

[Roman5018]

"Over-the-shoulder" SAM shots are possible IRL, with enough slack distance (hence the 5nm threshold). During Desert Storm, a RN Type 42 destroyer engaged an incoming Iraqi AShM on what nominally would be a blanked-out bearing for the Sea Dart launcher. The SAM was launched at the nearest possible bearing-to-target (edge of valid mount arc) and then almost immediately "turned around the corner" to engage and destroy the incoming missile.

Directors however should not have this capability, and if you have observed an illuminator painting "through the superstructure" then this needs to be investigated.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

Well, let the SAM mounts ignore the angles of fire, since this is possible IRL. Although it seems to me that not all systems are capable of this, but okay. However, in this particular case, the illumination radar was also on the opposite side of the ship and could not be involved in defense in any way. Accordingly, the second mount could not fire, since it can receive target designation only from this radar. The CMO interface shows that both radars illuminated targets, which means that the second one engages the target through the superstructure of the ship.

This is exactly the mistake I'm talking about. Shooting over the shoulder should be possible only when the target is in the working sector of the illumination radar. I don't think this is some kind of overmodeling. It's just how it's supposed to work.

[Roman5018]

Directors however should not have this capability, and if you have observed an illuminator painting "through the superstructure" then this needs to be investigated.

Hello, Dimitris

May I ask about the progress in the investigation of this problem? Are there any planned changes in the mechanics of the launchers and radars outside their working arcs?

[Dimitris]

We haven't had the chance to investigate this in proper detail, sorry. We'll hopefully be able to give its due course a bit later as time allows.