Korsun Pocket is a the second game using the award winning SSG Decisive Battles game engine. Korsun Pocket recreates the desperate German attempt to escape encirclement on the Russian Front early in 1944. The battle is a tense and exciting struggle, with neither side having a decisive advantage, as the Russians struggle to form the pocket, then try to resist successive German rescue efforts and last ditch attempts at breakout.
Hi, I am (still) a newbie to KP. I have learned the basics and now I am having a blast out of single player campaigns.
A couple of months ago, I posted about how much fun I was having with AtD. This was before the forums were hacked.
I posted about the following situation:
I am playing as the Germans in AtD. In my push towards Orsha, I was stunned to see how my obvious axis of advance (1 in the picture) was blocked not only by Russian forces in (4) but also menaced by a huge claw of Russian forces, smartly deployed in (2). The forces in (2) were a big trouble for my advance, because you cannot attack them without taking losses (they are in a wooded area), and I barely have the resources to even bother them (see my forces in 3).
Keeping in tune with the German's war doctrines of the time, I tried to encircle the points of high resistance with highly mobile forces (5). I also have some infantry in (6) to help with this.
However, the Russians falled back in mass (see next picture). In (1), the Russians responded to my threatening encirclement forces (2). Also, the Russians falled back towards Orsha (4) in an obvious attempt to secure the city and avoid encirclement.
A couple of turns later (sorry, I don't have screenies of this), Orsha is stacked with Russian infantry. The couple of divisions I had up north trying to encircle are bogged down in rather useless skirmishes. I think I have to encircle Orsha and cut supply lines to have a chance of taking it without lossing whole divsions in the process.
Sorry for the rant. Here goes the question: Do these re-deployments made by the Russian AI qualify as a "defense in depth"?
Intresting question! I'm not sure as I am still in the throws of learning this great game, but I think the answer is yes. Since the AI is regrouping the already deployed forces and is concentrating them in a single area, I think this would qualifty.
Others more experienced with the game will probably correct me, but it's just my intuition and understanding of the game, ( so Far[;)]) that makes me think it is "defense in depth"!
Thanks John for the kind words.
I would love to make an AAR out of this fascinating game. However, note that I am still playing a game that I started 2 months ago (!). Two kids and a wife... you know...
Regarding my question, what's really outstanding is that the AI seems to have a kind of "strategic layer" which dictates when is time to retreat and how to respond to different threats. The right word would be "low-level strategy" thinking, keeping in mind that strategies apply only to whole wars.
There is a thing I realized a time ago: I can only beat the enemy AI at this low-level strategy, I am not very inspired in my tactics (how I move individual units and bring them together to fight).
How do you deal with the defense in depth if you are an attacker?
You look for weaknesses - Areas of a few chewed up troops that can be mauled or drestroyed.
Encircle - The Big killer. Once cut off from supply they are meat, even my REMF (Rear eschelon Mo-Fo's) can kill them, just keep em surrounded.
Right click on the hex you are going to attack - Make sure you can get those shifts. If you see a green arrow pointing inwards thats an invitation to attack from that direction. Get at least 2 green arrow attacks, 3 is much better. A big stack and 2 single units will cancel his defensive shifts.
Overrun, overrun, Overrun - Even if you don't destroy him the first time you can attack again and again if you overrun. This is especially helpful if you can do it with units that are in fortifications. The first attack will eliminate his fort.
Semi-Overrun - If a unit is low on supplies, even a low odds attack will force it to use up one of its bullets. You can have your first attack be a feint and bring in the big guns for the killer blow. Say you have 12 units on three sides of an enemy. You attack with 3 on the first turn, the 9 on the second when he has no supply left.
Retreat to Nowhere - Lets say you got this nice attack set up on some units that will force them to retreat. If they have no places to retreat to because there are too many friendlies behind, you will double or more your step losses to them.
If you overrun - Your units can attack more. If they have enough movement they ccan go hurt someone else.
Check your units - If you have nothing for a unit to do at least dig the poor bugger in.
Supply - Get those supply trucks near the front. IF you have your units between you and the enemy you can stay three or even 2 hexes from an enemy unit. If not, I stay at least 4, 5 if the bugger is armored. Same goes for arty, Especially the slower ones that only move 4 hexs or so.
Combat advisor - wont take into account units that can attack but are Out-Of-Supply. If using an OOS unit will force an overrun use him!
Combat Advisor 2 - It will tell you which units to use on an attack. I move either the furthest units away first or the closest. Some units have a limited hexes they can go, esp the fasther away ones. Other like the close ones are probably the only ones to be able to reach a hex.
Well, that all for now. Any question on the advice I gave just ask. Remember advice is worth what you pay for it.
My thought on defense in depth is to do two things:
1) Take the Rommel approach and chew off bite size bits at a time until the depth is gone.
2) Look at the key units and key terrain where you can gain an advantage. If you isolate and destroy the key units that are defending the terrain you want to move thru often the defense in depth stops being formidable.
You can always try smashing thru two avenues and doing the grand encirclement but I find that much harder to do than the steps above.
Overrun, overrun, Overrun - Even if you don't destroy him the first time you can attack again and again if you overrun. This is especially helpful if you can do it with units that are in fortifications. The first attack will eliminate his fort.
Semi-Overrun - If a unit is low on supplies, even a low odds attack will force it to use up one of its bullets. You can have your first attack be a feint and bring in the big guns for the killer blow. Say you have 12 units on three sides of an enemy. You attack with 3 on the first turn, the 9 on the second when he has no supply left.
Taiko
Yes, Overun as much as possible! Great point Taiko[&o]
The best thing about the overun is, besides having overwhelming odds and dealing a unit the "killing touch", is that your units participating in the overun don't use up their turn, thus going again!
Thanks to everybody for the excellent advice. Man, you are hard-core players! I wouldn't stand a chance in a PBEM with you. [:D]
JSS: So you refrain to try encirclements? You favor a wide front or a breaktrough style?
Taiko: In my look for weakenesses, I have noticed that areas which are weak in this turn (and attacked by my troops) will became strong in the next turn. You need a lot of mobility to continue the pursue of weak areas. Many times I get caught in a trap: I attack a weak position and I get in trouble in the next turn. Can you comment on this?
The pictures were made using Adobe Photoshop. I used several layers, some of them with transparency. I am sure some other software can do something similar.
1. I want to make sure I will hurt the other guy more than me
2. After I attack I'm going to be left hanging sometimes, single units in clear terrain, etc.
3. I want to have a definite defensive position set up after I attack. Overruns are great because I can entrench or extend move back. Look for units in clear terrain, the best for overruns. If you have to fight in a forest, see if you can go around and encircle.
Someone said earlier that Rommel would defeat Defence-in-depth by biting off small pieces. Unless you absolutely MUST get to a VP hex, Killed units are worth a great deal. Not only do they give you victory points, but they cannot bother you again. If you read my post in the AAR you will see some examples of encirclement and overrun. A stack of four is a hard nut to crack if they are in defensive terrain with some anti shock modifiers. Try to keep your attackers from getting too far out and either encircled or out of supply.
My point is, much like using the combat advisor feature, make sure you have a good plan. Continue along your plan each turn; accomplish what you do toward that plan every turn.
If you want to do a grand encirclement, but are facing defense in depth, its probably better to take out a few key units first, overrun them if you can, and then pick the time and place of your choosing to breakthru and race for encirclement.
@ Taiko:
Thanks for the advice, I will put it into practice in the Russian steppes...
Now regarding this:
ORIGINAL: Taiko
Someone said earlier that Rommel would defeat Defence-in-depth by biting off small pieces. Unless you absolutely MUST get to a VP hex, Killed units are worth a great deal.
In AtD, as a German, you get almost nothing for Russian units destroyed. Now the Russians get lots of points for every German unit destroyed, so it's crucial to be cautious. It looks to me that the Russians have tons of low-quality infantry troops and a huge terrain to maneuver. Given this setting, moping them up systematically is a task that may take like one thousand turns. I am trying to apply a kind of "maneuver warfare" approach, but I am unable to envision the enemy's center of gravity when they face me with an apparent in-depth defense.
ORIGINAL: JSS
... make sure you have a good plan. Continue along your plan each turn; accomplish what you do toward that plan every turn.
Yeah, that's true. I am getting better at this and seeing the "big picture". However, "no plan survives the contact with the enemy". Just kidding, I got your point, what I would like to do in my next turns is to print the screen and write down my plans. Sometimes is difficult to remember when something goes wrong and you find yourself changing prioritys.
Chelco,
I'm sorry, given Korsun and how much destroyed units are worth I thought the same would be true in AtD. I dont have the game yet but its so much like korsun, well, There ya go.
Great job on the graphic, really crisp and concise!
Is this defence in depth? To be honest, my understanding of defence in depth is to imply that a defensive line is continued for several kilomters to the rear, so that a breakthrough has to content first with the initial defenders, then a second line, then third etc. So by that criteria, I would have thought that your graphic more represented a remanouvre to avoid outflanking rather than defence in depth. It is still quite possible for the attackers to advance quite deeply at zero loss. That is just my opinion.
In Dnepr, I have lways favored a continued line of defence. I say this only because the german manoevre units can move so far in one turn, that to leave gaps of 2 or 3 hexes invites a blitzkrieg type thrust through to the rear of your defence. Couple this with the interdiction the german can employ, and you have real difficulty holding the germans away from the VLs in the right time. You do tend to keep you units intact so there are benfits.
I find that by keeping a solid line of units, you lose a lot (LOT) of men but can stave off the blitz type moves and stop many of the VLs being captured in time.
Hi Brubaker!
Yes, defense in depth requires multiple lines of defenders. But also it implies a massive fall back of troops when the first line of defense has broken. In the lattest turns of this game (AtD) I noticed that the Russians give up terrain and re-deploy to a new position, ussually a town with points in it. I don't know.
I am finisihing (up to turn 21 now) the game on the screenies. Overwhelming defeat to me!
Can I ask you a question? Which is the best way to know how many points you get per each objective (units destruction, holding an objective, etc)?
Thanks in advance.
I would not classify the above example as a defense in depth. I agree with Brubaker, this is more of a mobile defense. A defense in depth does not imply a massive pull back of troops when the first line of defense has broken.
A defense in depth is a fortified zone where you are intending on holding the ground, an objective, or a series of enemy objectives (this is not to say that eventually you don't have to pull back, but, it is designed to hold ground and chew up the enemy as they work their way through the various defensive zones).
The first line of defense would be mainly screening troops who are to gather intelligence on enemy disposition, movements and intentions. They are not intended so stop anyone and will be pulled back into prepared defensive positions at the appropriate time. A defense in depth is represented by the screening/delaying actions described above along with prepared defensive positions, pre-plotted artillery "kill zones", mutual fields of fire, choking of avenues of approach and an active mobile reserve to reinforce and counterattack when necessary. Second, third and subsequent "defensive belts/zones" are implemented with friendly dispositions based on the type of enemy attacks expected, i.e. heavy on anti-tank obstacles, AT mines and guns etc if armor heavy attack is expected. Also, a good general/KP player can also position his defensive trooops so as to channel enemy units into certain areas where counterattacks can be mounted, i.e. holding key defensive terrain such as towns, riverlines, woods, etc with strong units to deter enemy attack and steer it towards an area of your choosing, such as open terrain, where counterattacks can be launched in order to wear down the spearhead of the attacking formations.
I realize that we are simply discussing the term "defense in depth" and it's meaning here. It's important to recognize the difference between a defense in depth, a delaying action or a mobile defense because when you're attacking a good defensive player he has very different goals in mind for each of the above.
CHELCO Writes << Sometimes is difficult to remember when something goes wrong and you find yourself changing prioritys. >>
Excellent point! As you know, most things WILL go wrong or, not exactly according to plan. That's why it's critical to have a plan and try to stick with it, but, you also must be remain flexible as it is quite rare that your opponent cooperates and lets you follow your plan. I know this will be controversial, but, I think that one of the biggest obstacles to new player success in this game is the Combat Advisor. I think that new players tend to chase the sweet odds and overruns and are distracted from what they're trying to do. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a nice feature for players just learning the game and are trying to get a feel for what's available for inviting targets. But, once you become familiar with the game you will know by scanning the front lines and analyzing the terrain where the weak points are AS YOU CONTINUE ON THE WAY TO YOUR OBJECTIVES. Keep in mind something I mentioned above about channeling enemy units into certain areas... the Combat Advisor can be used against people by intentionally leaving a weaker unit/sector as bait luring Combat Advisor directed players into either ambushes or luring them away from a critical area. I am perfectly willing to sacrifice a few victory points if it means I have distracted you from an important bridge and you give me an extra turn to build up my "defense in depth"! (When you bash my opinion, be aware, my opinions are tainted by the fact that I am an "old-school" wargamer and frown upon these new-fangled tools! I would say, throw down your crutch and use the force!).
TAIKO Writes
<< 2. After I attack I'm going to be left hanging sometimes, single units in clear terrain, etc. >>
Good point. Do all you can to avoid this situation as your opponent will be looking at your next point below!
<< 3. I want to have a definite defensive position set up after I attack. Overruns are great because I can entrench or extend move back. Look for units in clear terrain, the best for overruns. If you have to fight in a forest, see if you can go around and encircle >>
A good opponent will overrun your single unit out in the open if you're stuck after an attack. When you encounter this situation (hanging yourself out to dry after an attack) make sure you have anti-shock factors in the hex to help minimize the impact of the impending counterattack... throw an anti-tank unit in the hex if possible and bring up units in the hexes immediately behind your "hung-out-to-dry" units and dig them in, even a weak 1 or 2 step unit may be sufficient. This way when you get thrown back you will be falling into a nice prepared position (preferably with 3 steps in it!). If you can't bring up anti-shock factors or put units behind to help cover yourself you shouldn't be out there in the first place as you may be leaving yourself open to 2-3 overrun attacks in a row... very nasty!
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your feedback. I like your tips on the combat advisor and as I grow in knowledge of this game I fully agree with you. In my recent games I found myself skiping direct contact with the Russians and driving my troops around them. The game in the pictures is almost ended with an overwhelming defeat to me. I think I deserve it, you may have notice my spearheads are almost all infantry divisions and that I am protecting flanks with Panzer divisions...[:-]... I don't know what I was thinking, or if I was even thinking when playing.
Would you be so kind of telling me how do you know which are the objectives for each scenario and how many points you get from achieving them?
Thanks again.
