City defense, is AA even worth it?

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

The actual Anti-Air ground units, are solid, a must have as Germany, Russia.

As Germany, it seems the AA for intrinsic added to a city is worthless once the war hits 1944.
Allied Bombers level everything and anything. Why am I bother putting 50 MMPs unless it's a major city.

The extra AA for a city, does nothing to Allied bombers.
Luftwaffe can slow the Tactical/Medium bombers down thought.

Thoughts?

[HamburgerMeat]

definitely not worth if youre trying to protect from lvl 4-5 strategic bombers, as theyll raze anything to 0 supply. but i like to use them after the ussr falls in key cities or fortifications to protect hqs and fighters from allied tac/medium bombers

[Tanaka]

The actual Anti-Air ground units, are solid, a must have as Germany, Russia.

As Germany, it seems the AA for intrinsic added to a city is worthless once the war hits 1944.
Allied Bombers level everything and anything. Why am I bother putting 50 MMPs unless it's a major city.

The extra AA for a city, does nothing to Allied bombers.
Luftwaffe can slow the Tactical/Medium bombers down thought.

Thoughts?

I've always thought this game does not model well the difficulty the strat bombers faced over Europe. In this game they are unstoppable but in real history they had quite the difficult time for a long while. "Masters of the Air" shows this well. I still think strat bombers in this game should be nerfed.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Allies had more planes, than pilots. Heard that, not sure if true.
There certainly was alot of Airmen killed & captured.
I don't know the true war stats.

Far as the game, the "little cities", seems pointless.
"big cities", yeah.

Early years, yeah it helps, at least makes it harder on Tactical & Medium.

Once the Bombers get amp'ed up, nothing stops them. +5 does nothing, save a "big city".
Even German +5 fighters do little against Bombers.

[ThunderLizard11]

Would be interested in testing on this. Damage done to different level bombers by AA.

[Tanaka]

Allies had more planes, than pilots. Heard that, not sure if true.
There certainly was alot of Airmen killed & captured.
I don't know the true war stats.

Far as the game, the "little cities", seems pointless.
"big cities", yeah.

Early years, yeah it helps, at least makes it harder on Tactical & Medium.

Once the Bombers get amp'ed up, nothing stops them. +5 does nothing, save a "big city".
Even German +5 fighters do little against Bombers.

Yep elite fighters against strat bombers are useless as well. Not historical!

[Platoonist]

I still think strat bombers in this game should be nerfed.

Maybe the strat stands for stratofortress in this game.

[ThunderLizard11]

OK - is investing in level 5 bombers and building three for US worth it and what do you not invest in to fund it?

[HamburgerMeat]

OK - is investing in level 5 bombers and building three for US worth it and what do you not invest in to fund it?

heavy bomber tech and max strategic bombers is definitely worth and should be a top priority. ive seen some players skip advanced tanks as the USA and just go heavy into infantry, but im not sure im ready to make that jump. Honestly I'm still not very impressed by production tech, but not sure Id cut it out completely, id just put it in the bottom priority

[Elessar2]

I just checked the Strat's vs. fighters. Felt it odd that that they start with a defense of zero, less than Tacs and Mediums...

But they get a full point for each level of Strat that they gain, which is overkill. Despite it bristling with guns the Japanese took a decent toll of the B-29 in the Pacific; if they had decided to send some to Europe I am sure the Focke-Wulf's and 262's would have had a field day against them.

So devs my rec would be to have them start at Fighter Defense 1, but only gain 1/2 a point from then on. So L5 will mean 3.5 vs. 5.

[ThunderLizard11]

heavy bomber tech and max strategic bombers is definitely worth and should be a top priority. ive seen some players skip advanced tanks as the USA and just go heavy into infantry, but im not sure im ready to make that jump. Honestly I'm still not very impressed by production tech, but not sure Id cut it out completely, id just put it in the bottom priority

Should focus on bombing be on strat bombing be on France? I've seen some players use them in Turkey/Southern Russia as well.

[Tanaka]

I just checked the Strat's vs. fighters. Felt it odd that that they start with a defense of zero, less than Tacs and Mediums...

But they get a full point for each level of Strat that they gain, which is overkill. Despite it bristling with guns the Japanese took a decent toll of the B-29 in the Pacific; if they had decided to send some to Europe I am sure the Focke-Wulf's and 262's would have had a field day against them.

So devs my rec would be to have them start at Fighter Defense 1, but only gain 1/2 a point from then on. So L5 will mean 3.5 vs. 5.

Agreed sounds like a good nerf and decent fighters could cause some damage!

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I just checked the Strat's vs. fighters. Felt it odd that that they start with a defense of zero, less than Tacs and Mediums...

But they get a full point for each level of Strat that they gain, which is overkill. Despite it bristling with guns the Japanese took a decent toll of the B-29 in the Pacific; if they had decided to send some to Europe I am sure the Focke-Wulf's and 262's would have had a field day against them.

So devs my rec would be to have them start at Fighter Defense 1, but only gain 1/2 a point from then on. So L5 will mean 3.5 vs. 5.

Agreed sounds like a good nerf and decent fighters could cause some damage!

Also agree this sounds like a good solution.
In the meantime...a possible balance fix is to houserule that there be no double chitting of strat bomber research. Otherwise, it's quite possible for the Americans to get Lvl 5 Jet Strat Bombers by fall of 1943.
They are totally invulnerable to Axis fighters, and can lay waste to entire regions, AA not withstanding.

[Zeckke]

dont upgrade the city air, option, just the unit corp/division in a city

[HamburgerMeat]

heavy bomber tech and max strategic bombers is definitely worth and should be a top priority. ive seen some players skip advanced tanks as the USA and just go heavy into infantry, but im not sure im ready to make that jump. Honestly I'm still not very impressed by production tech, but not sure Id cut it out completely, id just put it in the bottom priority

Should focus on bombing be on strat bombing be on France? I've seen some players use them in Turkey/Southern Russia as well.

strategic bombers are generally used for 2 things:

1. reduce MPP, so that could be french mines or oilfields in the USSR/middle east

2. cut supplies - this makes it difficult for axis to reinforce, as they are unable to operate units to the affected area. it takes alot of strat bombers to achieve this in france, but it can be done by 43. An allied player could do it anyplace they want to establish a presence, preferrably an area with sufficient ports to help reinforce. once the allies are well established, its hard for the axis to force them out

[Tanaka]

heavy bomber tech and max strategic bombers is definitely worth and should be a top priority. ive seen some players skip advanced tanks as the USA and just go heavy into infantry, but im not sure im ready to make that jump. Honestly I'm still not very impressed by production tech, but not sure Id cut it out completely, id just put it in the bottom priority

Should focus on bombing be on strat bombing be on France? I've seen some players use them in Turkey/Southern Russia as well.

strategic bombers are generally used for 2 things:

1. reduce MPP, so that could be french mines or oilfields in the USSR/middle east

2. cut supplies - this makes it difficult for axis to reinforce, as they are unable to operate units to the affected area. it takes alot of strat bombers to achieve this in france, but it can be done by 43. An allied player could do it anyplace they want to establish a presence, preferrably an area with sufficient ports to help reinforce. once the allies are well established, its hard for the axis to force them out

Right but you should still be able to defend against them.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine, bracing and delicious. And why shouldn't it be? —it is the same the angels breathe.

[Duedman]

IIrc according to a statement by Bill a while ago, AA values of ressources do only count for half their numbers when defending a unit on top of the ressource.

I was wondering, why a British Naval bomber gets predicted damage when attacking an empty port while the bomber would dish out damage when you put a Sub into that very same port.
I had hotseated this because I was mad that Fafnir still killed my Subs even in Ports with AA.

On ressources alone AA upgrades are a waste. Perm in WiE is one of the very few exceptions.

What I think was overdone is lvl3 AA on Flak. Lvl2 Flak was annoyingly weak but lvl3 is simply through the roof.
This can be observed in my current 1943 match vs. OCB. Supercrazy loss predictions for bombers of both sides when attacking something covered by Flak.

[HamburgerMeat]

Should focus on bombing be on strat bombing be on France? I've seen some players use them in Turkey/Southern Russia as well.

strategic bombers are generally used for 2 things:

1. reduce MPP, so that could be french mines or oilfields in the USSR/middle east

2. cut supplies - this makes it difficult for axis to reinforce, as they are unable to operate units to the affected area. it takes alot of strat bombers to achieve this in france, but it can be done by 43. An allied player could do it anyplace they want to establish a presence, preferrably an area with sufficient ports to help reinforce. once the allies are well established, its hard for the axis to force them out

Right but you should still be able to defend against them.

I don't know, I rather like seeing the might of Allied international capital devastate the resource hungry axis. A nerf could really impact the allied ability to win late game

[HamburgerMeat]

IIrc according to a statement by Bill a while ago, AA values of ressources do only count for half their numbers when defending a unit on top of the ressource.

I was wondering, why a British Naval bomber gets predicted damage when attacking an empty port while the bomber would dish out damage when you put a Sub into that very same port.
I had hotseated this because I was mad that Fafnir still killed my Subs even in Ports with AA.

On ressources alone AA upgrades are a waste. Perm in WiE is one of the very few exceptions.

What I think was overdone is lvl3 AA on Flak. Lvl2 Flak was annoyingly weak but lvl3 is simply through the roof.
This can be observed in my current 1943 match vs. OCB. Supercrazy loss predictions for bombers of both sides when attacking something covered by Flak.

I agree that flak might be a bit overtuned, especially for the cost