Can Barges unload and load larger ships?

[WEXF]

I need some help understanding how, or if, barges can be used to help load and unload larger ships? I do know how to create barges. I also know how barges can load small amounts of troops and supplies/fuel and move them very short distances. My question is very specific. Can a barge assist in the loading or unloading of a larger ship in a port? If the answer is yes, please tell me how to do it.
Thanks
WEXF

[Platoonist]

Barges are meant for just loading/unloading themselves I believe. Small ship to shore craft like lighters and scows for assisting in unloading cargo ships are likely represented as naval support squads.

[Sardaukar]

While not about game-present barges, some are abstracted.

E.g. AP, AK and APA, AKA have abstracted landing craft. AFAIK at least ones in latter two they actually help unloading other ships in TF after their own ship is unloaded. This is less-known and abstracted.

[WEXF]

Thanks for these responses. If I am reading correctly it looks like having barges that are created in WITP-AE in a port does not help the loading or unloading of ships.
WEXF

[Sardaukar]

Thanks for these responses. If I am reading correctly it looks like having barges that are created in WITP-AE in a port does not help the loading or unloading of ships.
WEXF

Actually not entirely sure about that.

But that stuff is usually by port size. Still, might be interesting to test unload rates with barges/landing crafts in port and when not.

[WEXF]

I decided to take the advice and run a test to see what happens.
I chose the port of Taichu because there was sufficient supply to create barges and enough xAK shipping to allow for the creation of a TF that would be too large to dock. There were 11 xAKs. This screen shows the shipping in port after the formation of TF44 containing the 11 xAK.

Taichua.jpg (178.85 KiB) Viewed 882 times

Here is TF 44 before loading and without the barge TF being created.

NoBB4640a.jpg (200.92 KiB) Viewed 880 times

After running the turn each ship in TF44 loaded 640 supply. This is the result of the test without any barges in the port.

NoB640a.jpg (197.1 KiB) Viewed 878 times

[WEXF]

In the next test I created a 12 barge TF43.

BargnoDka.jpg (183 KiB) Viewed 877 times

I then created the same TF44 and ran the loading. You can see in these screens that the results are exactly the same and you can also see at the bottom of the screens that there was another TF in the hex. That was TF43 containing the 12 barges.

BB4640a.jpg (203.58 KiB) Viewed 875 times

B640a.jpg (211.66 KiB) Viewed 874 times

Finally, I wondered if it made any difference if the barges were in a barge TF or just anchored in the port, so I ran it with the barges created but not in a TF. The results were exactly the same. My conclusion is that the presence of barges in a port has no effect on the rate of loading of TF in the hex. I also picked this port because there was no naval support available that might impact the results.
Hope this helps.
WEXF

[Moltrey]

If memory serves the Devs made the player-creatable Barges so you can ferry supplies for short hops in island chains and along coasts.

[RangerJoe]

If my memory serves correctly, the amphibious tractors help unload ships.

[Platoonist]

Just to muddy the water here's an old post by developer Don Bowen that suggests empty barges and other craft in a TF can assist in the unloading aspect of an invasion anyway.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... dc97c70f51

OK, I took a look at the code and I have to admit that I seem to have lied. Not only amphib ships can help in unload, but small beaching craft as well. So my answer a few posts up is incorrect. Empty LB, LCVP, LCM can help in unload. Not by any direct transfer of troops between ships, but by contributing to the new load unload rate for the TF. This is a calculated ability of the TF to unload "over the beach". Empty Amphib ships are great, naval transports (AP/AK) are good, merchant ships (xAP, etc) suck. I'm no longer a member of the development team and I do not feel that I can give exact formula, but the unload bonus can be substantial.

[Chris21wen]

Just to muddy the water here's an old post by developer Don Bowen that suggests empty barges and other craft in a TF can assist in the unloading aspect of an invasion anyway.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... dc97c70f51

OK, I took a look at the code and I have to admit that I seem to have lied. Not only amphib ships can help in unload, but small beaching craft as well. So my answer a few posts up is incorrect. Empty LB, LCVP, LCM can help in unload. Not by any direct transfer of troops between ships, but by contributing to the new load unload rate for the TF. This is a calculated ability of the TF to unload "over the beach". Empty Amphib ships are great, naval transports (AP/AK) are good, merchant ships (xAP, etc) suck. I'm no longer a member of the development team and I do not feel that I can give exact formula, but the unload bonus can be substantial.

That's really old and don't think it's correct anymore, even if it was then but never tested it and never noticed anything.

My belief is only the abstract landing craft associated with AK, AKA etc speed up unloading but that's built into the ships themselves.

The simple test crried out by WEXF seems to say they don't with loading but unknown with unloading.

[BBfanboy]

Don Bowen was referring to Amphibious landings which have a different unload coding than unloading at a port. The tests run in this thread were about unloading in a port and showed no assistance from barges/beaching craft. The test should be rerun in an amphib landing situation. It should be possible to create barges from supply loaded ships for the test. Since troops and equipment have other load factors like volume/squad considerations that do not apply to supply, it may be necessary to make the amphib landing for supply only.

PS - Don Bowen did not mention LCTs but I think they are included in the amphib unload assistance. LSTs are ships so they are not included.

[WEXF]

I look forward to others running additional tests and seeing the results.
WEXF

[BBfanboy]

Came across this chart .

USN WWII LCT LCM & LSTs.jpg (50.38 KiB) Viewed 742 times

[btd64]

Nice BB....GP

[Kull]

I look forward to others running additional tests and seeing the results.
WEXF

Test was run using the "Downfall" scenario in v1.126a, my "test bed" for this sort of thing since it has no mods of any kind.

1) The 39th USN Naval Construction Regiment was loaded onto two APAs (part of a small Amphibious TF in San Francisco), and sent to the Channel Islands, a small base with only a size-1 Port. That's important because the TF cannot dock, and thus it must use the amphibious unload rates. There are two additional TFs - both empty - and these were sent to the nearby base at Santa Barbara

[Kull]

2) The TF was set to unload only AFTER arriving at the Channel Islands and sitting there for one turn, in order to ensure the full number of Ops points were available. After one turn, the amphibious unload is in-process, and some of the troops and supplies are now at the base.

[Kull]

3) In this alternate situation, the two empty TFs in Santa Barbara have also arrived at the Channel Islands and are present when the Troop TF begins to unload. As you can see, the presence of empty ships in the same hex - but not included in the Troop TF - has no effect on the amount of troops and supplies that are unloaded in one turn:

[Kull]

4) In this final test, one of the empty TFs has merged with the Troop TF. It adds 2 APDs and 8 LSMs, all of which have a full set of Ops points but no cargo of any kind. The Troop TF is set to unload, and we see the result at the end of the turn. More troops and supplies have been unloaded at the Channel Islands.

Conclusion: Empty troop and cargo carrying vessels absolutely DO contribute to an improved amphibious unload rate.

[bradfordkay]

4) In this final test, one of the empty TFs has merged with the Troop TF. It adds 2 APDs and 8 LSMs, all of which have a full set of Ops points but no cargo of any kind. The Troop TF is set to unload, and we see the result at the end of the turn. More troops and supplies have been unloaded at the Channel Islands.

Conclusion: Empty troop and cargo carrying vessels absolutely DO contribute to an improved amphibious unload rate.

With the caveat that it is only empty troop and cargo carrying vessels in the same TF that contribute to the amphibious unload rate. That would be helpful if you had previously emptied LCMs, etc. in the destination hex, but I would be interested to see how much faster the unit would be unloaded if it had originally been loaded onto all those extra ships.