Open Beta Patch v1.26o2 (12 may 2025)

[grime]

I love these brilliant attacks

Looks like they are following the Art of War "Attack where your enemy is weak".
Can't be weaker then having 0 forces!

The ones that get me is the disastrously executed attacks, where somehow despite attacking an opponent with 0 ships, they still manage to lose ships.

[mroyer]

I love these brilliant attacks

Looks like they are following the Art of War "Attack where your enemy is weak".
Can't be weaker then having 0 forces!

The ones that get me is the disastrously executed attacks, where somehow despite attacking an opponent with 0 ships, they still manage to lose ships.

No enemy ships, lost one friendly. Disastrously executed attack.

Untitled.jpg (198.43 KiB) Viewed 1238 times

[zgrssd]

I love these brilliant attacks

Looks like they are following the Art of War "Attack where your enemy is weak".
Can't be weaker then having 0 forces!

The ones that get me is the disastrously executed attacks, where somehow despite attacking an opponent with 0 ships, they still manage to lose ships.

It becomes really bad when they almost kill a president when doing it:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OvrlyIm4DAk

Or fishermen. Or your own ships:
https://youtu.be/yzGqp3R4Mx4

[alexman91]

pls add a rule that the metal deposit in your starting area cant spawn on hard terrain.
i can not afford 1000 IP to build on mountain

[Don_Kiyote]

metal deposit in your starting area... spawn on hard terrain.

Metal in a mountain?
Private will build the road for free. Or start saving

[Vic]

Bump!

Prepping for new release version. Here is v1.26 already for the open beta.

Bringing many bug/glitch fixes and a new History Class!

Best wishes,
Vic

[Arralen]

.
"History Class: Outpost Colony" pretty much breaks the game!
Ok, let me start from the beginning, although some of this is not directly relevant.
In my 1.25i game ("Large-Supersized Boreas class" world; 136% hvy. min.; geologically active) I had a hard time finding any mineable ressources other than ice, and the AI build tons of ice mines (on a boreas world that is 80% snowed over, yeah).
So I wanted to test if there might be a peculiarity with metal deposit generation on such worlds.
Here's my test setup ("Large-Supersized Boreas class" world):

TestBorealHistoryClass.png (378.43 KiB) Viewed 872 times

... 3 zones just to speed things up concerning the prospection...

TestBorealGenerationSett.png (194.59 KiB) Viewed 872 times

.
First result - this is the "starting" screen, no turn played!

TestBoreal_InstantWin.png (242.96 KiB) Viewed 872 times

Excursus: This is what happened when I tried to restart the planet gen. on step 2:

TestBoreal_ResteartGenOnStep2.png (159.48 KiB) Viewed 872 times

t.b.c.

[Arralen]

This is the usual result I got - remember, it's supposed to be a 3-zone start:

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b5.png (90.08 KiB) Viewed 871 times

So I tried again, with no history class setting other than "Outpost Colony", and here's that result:

b6.png (164.86 KiB) Viewed 871 times

[Uemon]

Ok so i usually play games where you start with nothing, no tech levels, no armies, just militia.

One thing that im noticing is that the way industrial capacity scales is very difficult.

You need to save up metals and huge amounts of IC in order to build level 1 industry, which in itself provides relatively little IC in return. On the other hand, things start to snowball kinda super hard after level 2 or 3 industry building.

Anyway could it be possible to add some sort of building, lets call it a "workshop" that gives a small IC bonus? This building would be only relevant eary on when you have nothing. It doesnt even need to provide a big bonus, just keep in mind that when you start with nothing youre getting something like 50-70 IC per turn. So a building that gives you like +10 or 15 at level one and doesnt cost much more than say number of turns and a bit of metals (maybe some power too?) would be a very good option. Especially when you play on volcanic planets like i do, where a single independent infantry battalion is like 100 IC to raise.

Alternatively if you like to make things be a choice between different resources, you can also make it that it can only be built on top of ruins and/or it could also be consuming scavenge points like scavanging furnaces do.

Alterantive #2 it could be made so that it requires rare earth metals to build since very early game their only purpose is turning them into machinery or selling them for cash.

I feel like it is extremely difficult to save up resources to build level 1 industry. While i dont necessarily dislike it or want to change it, i feel like there is room to add a smaller building that basically does the same, only it costs less resouces and provides a much smaller bonus.

[mroyer]

Ok so i usually play games where you start with nothing, no tech levels, no armies, just militia.

One thing that im noticing is that the way industrial capacity scales is very difficult.

You need to save up metals and huge amounts of IC in order to build level 1 industry, which in itself provides relatively little IC in return. On the other hand, things start to snowball kinda super hard after level 2 or 3 industry building.

Anyway could it be possible to add some sort of building, lets call it a "workshop" that gives a small IC bonus?

I've noticed this too. I was lucky enough in my game to have a couple degraded factory perks nearby to cover the need.

Instead of, or in addition to, your proposal (an IP workshop asset) I wonder if simply allowing IP to be bought and sold on the open market would help.

-Mark R.

[Vic]

@Arralen,
Note that you can get less Zones than requested if the population cannot be found.
best wishes,
Vic

[Vic]

Concerning the IP comments and making them tradeable... It is not planned right now, but once I get around to looking at "advanced trade" I will consider this for sure (it is already on my wishlist).

[Vic]

bump!
New version.
Fixes and AI work.

[Don_Kiyote]

Alternatively if you like to make things be a choice between different resources, you can also make it that it can only be built on top of ruins and/or it could also be consuming scavenge points like scavanging furnaces do.

Alterantive #2 it could be made so that it requires rare earth metals to build since very early game their only purpose is turning them into machinery or selling them for cash.

Both of these sound kind of good to me. Unfortunately requiring rare earths for a workshop is hard to justify in my head cannon.

Currently, with two (peacefully) captured zones, Light Industry alone is doing a tremendous job for me. I have no public industry, one 40IP hex perk, and around 300IP income per turn.

About trading IP, is occurs to me that if you could buy IP, it would be no different from other resources, except energy, which can all be easily converted between each other.

[Xxzard]

Alternatively if you like to make things be a choice between different resources, you can also make it that it can only be built on top of ruins and/or it could also be consuming scavenge points like scavanging furnaces do.

Alterantive #2 it could be made so that it requires rare earth metals to build since very early game their only purpose is turning them into machinery or selling them for cash.

Both of these sound kind of good to me. Unfortunately requiring rare earths for a workshop is hard to justify in my head cannon.

Currently, with two (peacefully) captured zones, Light Industry alone is doing a tremendous job for me. I have no public industry, one 40IP hex perk, and around 300IP income per turn.

About trading IP, is occurs to me that if you could buy IP, it would be no different from other resources, except energy, which can all be easily converted between each other.

IP generation in the early game (especially low tech, 1 zone starts) feels OK to me when you have or can quickly get multiple zones with light industry. Sometimes having the right FP cards makes a big difference here. However it tends to feel quite slow when you only have 1 zone. Resource and economy buildup in general is really slow when you have 1 low pop zone and only 1 or 2 scavenge locations in that zone. Even worse on a high hazard level planet with extra IP cost. It is particularly challenging (to the point of feeling unfair at times) when you are in this situation and the AI has metal deposits and is also building its free dirt roads everywhere.

In this situation your strategic options are limited. At least for me, I feel getting public industry is essential, as after a certain point my experience is that IP is the main economic bottleneck. It also feels essential to get IP to be able to build roads and compete with the opposition in land grabs. I've run simulations and test games with low resources and low scav, and it is hard to get your public industry up any sooner than round 13, with round 15 or later being more realistic. You can afford to build some troops, some buildings, and maybe 10 hexes of flat dirt roads before then, depending on various factors.

Now, I like the scrappy Mad Max style early turns, where small decisions can really have a big impact. Therefore, any additional IP generating mechanic shouldn't just make it easier to generate lots of IP, and must have a worthwhile trade-off. Trade for IP is one option, although I feel like it might be a no-brainer in many cases, and it seems questionable as to who you're trading with (are the free folk or wildlife providing you with IP?). Some kind of very inefficient workshop production of IP could work - good for emergencies or if you need just a few more points, similar to ammunition and machines. Alternatively, perhaps there could be a 'level 0' public industry building with say 25 IP production but much lower metal cost and 1 or 2 turns construction time? These could add strategic options.

[fibol]

On scrappy worlds IP is massive and getting your first level of public industry going is a massive world changer, I have started wars over IP producing hex perks. Having a level 0.5 version would certainly make the transition smoother. I am not particularly fond of trading IP. IP from what I can gather represents the raw workforce you have available. If you only have 1 excavator you can only dig so many holes, no matter how much money you throw at it.

[grime]

IP generation in the early game (especially low tech, 1 zone starts) feels OK to me when you have or can quickly get multiple zones with light industry. Sometimes having the right FP cards makes a big difference here. However it tends to feel quite slow when you only have 1 zone. Resource and economy buildup in general is really slow when you have 1 low pop zone and only 1 or 2 scavenge locations in that zone. Even worse on a high hazard level planet with extra IP cost. It is particularly challenging (to the point of feeling unfair at times) when you are in this situation and the AI has metal deposits and is also building its free dirt roads everywhere.

In this situation your strategic options are limited. At least for me, I feel getting public industry is essential, as after a certain point my experience is that IP is the main economic bottleneck. It also feels essential to get IP to be able to build roads and compete with the opposition in land grabs. I've run simulations and test games with low resources and low scav, and it is hard to get your public industry up any sooner than round 13, with round 15 or later being more realistic. You can afford to build some troops, some buildings, and maybe 10 hexes of flat dirt roads before then, depending on various factors.

Now, I like the scrappy Mad Max style early turns, where small decisions can really have a big impact. Therefore, any additional IP generating mechanic shouldn't just make it easier to generate lots of IP, and must have a worthwhile trade-off. Trade for IP is one option, although I feel like it might be a no-brainer in many cases, and it seems questionable as to who you're trading with (are the free folk or wildlife providing you with IP?). Some kind of very inefficient workshop production of IP could work - good for emergencies or if you need just a few more points, similar to ammunition and machines. Alternatively, perhaps there could be a 'level 0' public industry building with say 25 IP production but much lower metal cost and 1 or 2 turns construction time? These could add strategic options.

I've mentioned this before - early game success on extreme difficulty largely comes down to luck -- if your initial city builds a light industry or if you get the industry fate card, you have a good chance of living. If not, it's a crap shoot. It helps if you're not close to any other major or aggressive minor, but it's by no means a certainty. IP is the main bottleneck, as opposed to metal. Lowering the IP requirements of the first public industry or biasing the public sector towards producing light industry first would go a long way to helping remove the "luck" factor and leave it more down to player skill.

[mroyer]

I am not particularly fond of trading IP. IP from what I can gather represents the raw workforce you have available.

Interesting take...

I've always rationalized IP as industrial production of pieces, parts and subassemblies used to produce the final product. For example, we produce a truck model using IP that are sourced from the economy representing all sorts of things used to build a truck - nuts, bolts, tires, engines, transmissions, axels, seats, windows, doorhandles, whatever.... i.e., the IP is the supply chain.

In that view, IP certainly could be a candidate for trade - even for early, low-tech situations. Cottage industry might spring up in major regimes, minor regimes, and even free-folk towns, to feed IP to the traders.

I do agree, though, that it would need to be very carefully balanced so that the early game doesn't lose that regime-on-a-shoestring feel.

-Mark R.

[Thrake]

IP is the main bottleneck, as opposed to metal.

I disagree. The only real bottleneck is metal. Sure, IP is crucial, but IP is produced almost exclusively by spending metal. There is also a small early game bottleneck in energy, however it is quickly solved by a level or two of power plant (which also requires mostly metal) and possibly a few levels of solar panels/furnaces for super early energy production.

You do also need IP to get metal however the IP investment with mines/scavenging is minimal unlike industry's metal investment.

Maybe industry should have a higher upkeep? If a longer term goal is to limit snowballing, then it would also help in this reguard as a lot of assets, as well as military is largely a one-time investment with comparatively low upkeep. Energy efficiency overall decrease with asset levels, but at the same time energy production efficiency increase faster than this while also receiving a number of boosts through better options or linear tech boosts.

There aren't a lot of opportunities to catch up with a player with an economic lead.

[grime]

IP is the main bottleneck, as opposed to metal.

I disagree. The only real bottleneck is metal. Sure, IP is crucial, but IP is produced almost exclusively by spending metal. There is also a small early game bottleneck in energy, however it is quickly solved by a level or two of power plant (which also requires mostly metal) and possibly a few levels of solar panels/furnaces for super early energy production.

You do also need IP to get metal however the IP investment with mines/scavenging is minimal unlike industry's metal investment.

Maybe industry should have a higher upkeep? If a longer term goal is to limit snowballing, then it would also help in this reguard as a lot of assets, as well as military is largely a one-time investment with comparatively low upkeep. Energy efficiency overall decrease with asset levels, but at the same time energy production efficiency increase faster than this while also receiving a number of boosts through better options or linear tech boosts.

There aren't a lot of opportunities to catch up with a player with an economic lead.

Metal can be purchased. Metal can be mined from Recycling plants (which you need IP to build). However, the *only* way to get IP is a hex perk, a private industry asset, or public industry asset. Only one of those is directly under the player's control. So while conserving your IP to develop your metal collection and industry, you also need to balance IP use with road building for expansion and troop creation. Once you get your recycling centers up and running, the metal problem diminishes - it only becomes a problem again when you start producing tanks/artillery (build cost + ammunition usage).

Let's run some numbers - one recycling center costs 100 metal and 270 IP to build, and will produce somewhere between 40 to 100 metal a turn. An industry asset will cost 390 IP and 1500 metal. You start out with a private recycling center producing 60 metal a turn, and around 50 IP production a turn. That's 6 turns worth of IP vs 2 turns of metal. So while waiting those 6 turns to build enough IP for one center, you've now produced another 2 recycling centers worth of metal. And there's not a lot you can do with that metal without IP, so it builds up quickly. IP, however, seems to be always in demand - roads/ammunition/etc all need it. Once you get a couple recycling centers up and running. the metal problem goes away. The IP problem doesn't.