Blocking sea transit hexes is gamey

[havoc1371]

The Allied player placing ships on the transit hexes to prevent the Axis player from moving back and forth to the Med is gamey and is using a design flaw to gain an advantage. Really need a program correction to prevent this from happening; maybe ships that don't transit are automatically shifted to an open hex next to the transit hex at the end of their turn.

Justification: The British and French "blockading" the Straits of Gibraltar would be an act of war against Italy, which is neutral in 1939. Also, you can't "blockade" the straits against submarines. A legitimate ploy (IMO) is to place a ship(s) next to the hexes to play the "blockade" card, forcing a confrontation with belligerents trying to transit, but not interfering with a neutral.

[Zarevic]

Not sure...
If Allies really WANT to prenvent Italian Fleet to exit Mediterranean Sea at any coast THEY COULD.

Maybe at a cost of Italian slight mobilitation towards Axis?

[BillRunacre]

Looking at this in game terms, and this is something that can be done:

If the Allies place ships on hexes 85,60 or 85,61 while Italy is neutral, then automatically moving them to other hexes at the end of the Allied turn would allow Italy to use the hexes.

The same for those to the west of Gibraltar.

I think this would resolve things?

[wirkey]

This, or have an increased italian mobilization if those hexes are blocked.

Somehow related I think there should be similar transfer hexes for the suez canal, panama canal and maybe even bosporus.

Opposing sides naval units can use them as long as they are not at war with the controlling nation.

[redrum68]

Yeah I'd agree with either an increase in Italian mobilization or moving allied ships over a hex. Some people house rule this out but would be great if the game handled it.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

I've yet to figure out why anyone cares about this.
Go ahead, let the Italians leave before they are at war, doesn't bother me one bit.
What are those bucket of bolts gonna do, sniff the dozen French & RN ships you know that already exist.

[ThunderLizard11]

Moving Italian navy out of the Med is gamey.

[Platoonist]

I've yet to figure out why anyone cares about this.
Go ahead, let the Italians leave before they are at war, doesn't bother me one bit.
What are those bucket of bolts gonna do, sniff the dozen French & RN ships you know that already exist.

I agree. Let them leave. The more the better. I would think having big chunks of the Italian navy locked out of the Med once war is declared is punishment enough. Considering the major damage the Allied navy can do to their transports and African ports and the fact they are now freely able to gun for their home turf.

[havoc1371]

I've yet to figure out why anyone cares about this.
Go ahead, let the Italians leave before they are at war, doesn't bother me one bit.
What are those bucket of bolts gonna do, sniff the dozen French & RN ships you know that already exist.

Because Italians can send transports around Africa before the war to reinforce East Africa, unless the Allied player sets ships on the transit hexes.

[havoc1371]

Moving Italian navy out of the Med is gamey.

Disagree. Neutral navies move ships all the time. Russian fleet sailed to San Francisco during the American Civil War. Besides, not only surface ships use the transit points. Transports use them too. Italy has colonies it can reinforce in East Africa; a perfectly legitimate move by the Axis player with neutral Italy.

[havoc1371]

Looking at this in game terms, and this is something that can be done:

If the Allies place ships on hexes 85,60 or 85,61 while Italy is neutral, then automatically moving them to other hexes at the end of the Allied turn would allow Italy to use the hexes.

The same for those to the west of Gibraltar.

I think this would resolve things?

That's a solution. But I still think Allies blocking access by occupying the hexes is gamey. If an Allied player wants to contest access, they can place ships next to the hexes, forcing any Axis ships and subs to fight past to gain access. Simply sitting surface ships on two hexes shouldn't prevent subs from passing through the straights. What'd the Allies do? Line ships up across the 13 kilometer straits with fishing nets?

[havoc1371]

This, or have an increased italian mobilization if those hexes are blocked.

Somehow related I think there should be similar transfer hexes for the suez canal, panama canal and maybe even bosporus.

Opposing sides naval units can use them as long as they are not at war with the controlling nation.

Don't agree about the Suez and Panama canals. They are not an open waterway (Panama has locks to transit) and easily controlled by the Allies.

[BillRunacre]

Looking at this in game terms, and this is something that can be done:

If the Allies place ships on hexes 85,60 or 85,61 while Italy is neutral, then automatically moving them to other hexes at the end of the Allied turn would allow Italy to use the hexes.

The same for those to the west of Gibraltar.

I think this would resolve things?

That's a solution. But I still think Allies blocking access by occupying the hexes is gamey. If an Allied player wants to contest access, they can place ships next to the hexes, forcing any Axis ships and subs to fight past to gain access. Simply sitting surface ships on two hexes shouldn't prevent subs from passing through the straights. What'd the Allies do? Line ships up across the 13 kilometer straits with fishing nets?

I'll have to test it out in Hotseat, and I'll bear this in mind too, i.e. the need to possibly extend the range of hexes where Allied ships may be lurking.

[Duedman]

I usually houserule the blocking out. Not so much for allowing Italians out but rather allowing German Subs in

[Birdw]

I believe Havoc had the misfortune of running into my fleet screening a damaged flattop in Gibraltar. I won't leave a damaged carrier vulnerable so I don't appear "gamey." Other times, it's just that the ships are at the limit of their movement—not so nefarious. There are only so many hexes for ships; leaving a ship vulnerable isn't an option, IMHO.

What is gamey is moving the best part of the Italian Army to East Africa and a significant portion of the Italian Fleet into the Atlantic. The Allies would have seen any Italian movement into the Atlantic as hostile. At the very least, it would free the Allies from any penalties they would face otherwise in the Middle Sea.

If Allied fleets in the Central Med "would have" triggered Italy then the Italian Navy moving into the Atlantic battleground would undoubtedly have the same effect on the Allies. It's a two-way street.


A possible solution for the Gibralter bottleneck would be to have three sets of dual hexes within, say, five hexes of Gibralter. The Allies could still block the passage if they wanted to use all those resources, but it would give the Axis more options.

[Birdw]

Scott,

Did the Russian fleet Winter in San Fransisco or New York? There was a time I would have known for certain.

[Platoonist]

Scott,

Did the Russian fleet Winter in San Fransisco or New York? There was a time I would have known for certain.

They wintered in both. In 1863, during the American Civil War, the Russian Navy's Atlantic and Pacific fleets wintered in the American ports of New York and San Francisco, respectively. It was meant to be a show of support for the Union. Some historians think this visit was a major factor in deterring France and the UK from entering the war on the Confederate side.

From a more cynical viewpoint it was probably done to get the Russian ships into ice-free ports so that in the event of a possible European war over Polish independence they could more easily attack British and French commerce.

[Birdw]

Thank you, and now we know the rest of the story! RIP Mr. Harvey!

[Lothos]

The Allied player placing ships on the transit hexes to prevent the Axis player from moving back and forth to the Med is gamey and is using a design flaw to gain an advantage. Really need a program correction to prevent this from happening; maybe ships that don't transit are automatically shifted to an open hex next to the transit hex at the end of their turn.

Justification: The British and French "blockading" the Straits of Gibraltar would be an act of war against Italy, which is neutral in 1939. Also, you can't "blockade" the straits against submarines. A legitimate ploy (IMO) is to place a ship(s) next to the hexes to play the "blockade" card, forcing a confrontation with belligerents trying to transit, but not interfering with a neutral.

TRP has them in different spots each game and the Allies can not see them.

The AI was tought how to use these as well when they move.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I usually houserule the blocking out. Not so much for allowing Italians out but rather allowing German Subs in

Yeah...In.