Are the Soviets too strong!

[generalfdog]

I put the header up mostly to get people all worked up since the has been the drum beat for years to strengthen them and I actually think as a whole they are about right, however 41 Ussr if they do strong mid deployment and build correctly are very tough, maybe too tough? even forward deployment can be difficult, and has anyone actually achieved historical German conquest by December 41?

[stjeand]

The issue for me has always been finding players of equal caliber.

IF you don't the statement is mute.

For example...I can beat many players in France alone. IF they actually get by France they will be doomed in Russia.


Then again I am not a good gauge. I have been playing to long.


BUT the few games I have ever played that the Soviets stopped the Germans the tide turned fast...especially when the Allies land.

It is very difficult to balance since few games get that far.

[MattFL]

The Soviets cannot stop the Germans given even remotely competent play.

Nothing can stop the Germans.

Take Yugoslavia, Greece before France and then take Spain after France. Then send shit tons to the middle east. Game over.

Honestly, i don't even want to play the Germans anymore, it's too repetitive and simple.

[stjeand]

The Soviets cannot stop the Germans given even remotely competent play.

Nothing can stop the Germans.

Take Yugoslavia, Greece before France and then take Spain after France. Then send shit tons to the middle east. Game over.

Honestly, i don't even want to play the Germans anymore, it's too repetitive and simple.

OH it does depend who you play.
I have played that flow before and easily stopped the Germans.

Yugoslavia and Greece weaken the Germans so they struggle in France...
Spain means more territory to garrison and less troops for Russia.

Time will tell.

[generalfdog]

The Soviets cannot stop the Germans given even remotely competent play.

Nothing can stop the Germans.

Take Yugoslavia, Greece before France and then take Spain after France. Then send shit tons to the middle east. Game over.

Honestly, i don't even want to play the Germans anymore, it's too repetitive and simple.

Humm ya I would take that bet, that is an ok strategy but easily fails, and if you do all of that Ussr will easily stop you

[MattFL]

The Soviets cannot stop the Germans given even remotely competent play.

Nothing can stop the Germans.

Take Yugoslavia, Greece before France and then take Spain after France. Then send shit tons to the middle east. Game over.

Honestly, i don't even want to play the Germans anymore, it's too repetitive and simple.

OH it does depend who you play.
I have played that flow before and easily stopped the Germans.

Yugoslavia and Greece weaken the Germans so they struggle in France...
Spain means more territory to garrison and less troops for Russia.

Time will tell.

Yeah, i understand all of that. My thinking is as follows; there is no point invading France during the winter 39, the weather is horrid and France ends up falling summer of '40 regardless of when you invade. So the Yugoslavia/Greece thing is really just a case of "I have all of these troops, what should i do with them".

The Spain thing is a natural progression from taking France. Key element is Gibraltar, cut off the Allies. Again, it literally takes around 3 turns to capture Spain. And yes, no doubt you need way more troops on garrison duty with this type of strategy, but the German production points go past 4-500 at this point and is easily a benefit.

Anyway, until someone spanks me and proves me wrong, i'm gonna back the german 100% win rate.

[MattFL]

The Soviets cannot stop the Germans given even remotely competent play.

Nothing can stop the Germans.

Take Yugoslavia, Greece before France and then take Spain after France. Then send shit tons to the middle east. Game over.

Honestly, i don't even want to play the Germans anymore, it's too repetitive and simple.

Humm ya I would take that bet, that is an ok strategy but easily fails, and if you do all of that Ussr will easily stop you

Well, put up a game and we'll find out.

[MattFL]

Oh, and just to clarify, the reason taking Yugoslavia and Greece very early is so important is because it gives the Germans ports on the Mediterranean. Once you have those ports, it's easy to overwhelm the allies in Africa...

[stjeand]

I am more than happy to play a game...though I am gone for a week in a few days.

[generalfdog]

put one up code "Matt" lets see how it goes

[MattFL]

Should be interesting. Nothing would make me happier than to be wrong about this. We'll see.

[canuckgamer]

I am very interested in how your game goes. Maybe post a AAR? My friend and I who are the same skill level have played the 1939 small fleet scenario three times and the Axis have won all three. That said all three were played before the latest changes that were added to help the Russians.

[boldairade]

I am very interested in how your game goes. Maybe post a AAR? My friend and I who are the same skill level have played the 1939 small fleet scenario three times and the Axis have won all three. That said all three were played before the latest changes that were added to help the Russians.

Seconded

I miss this game

[CHINCHIN]

The Soviets cannot stop the Germans given even remotely competent play.

Nothing can stop the Germans.

Take Yugoslavia, Greece before France and then take Spain after France. Then send shit tons to the middle east. Game over.

Honestly, i don't even want to play the Germans anymore, it's too repetitive and simple.

I don't really understand why this strategy works unless you're referring to games against the AI.

Attack Greece and Yugoslavia before France, in the winter of '39 or '40 with good weather?
When do you attack and when does France fall then?
When you invade Spain?
When you invade the USSR?

If you send everything to the Middle East to take it, wear and tear and time will make you attack the USSR late and badly. And the USSR is the key.

I remember some super fun mirror games with... I think it was ncc1701e, in which both of us with the axis took the Middle East and Baku, so Turkey aligned with the axis. And in the end I lost with the axis, and ncc1701e was saved by 1 turn.

Having plenty of oil, attacking the USSR through the Caucasus, and winning Turkey as an ally did not help much, in fact I think it harmed the axis, or we did not know how to manage it well.

[CHINCHIN]

I have played 2 hotseat games with the modified scenarios that Alvaro published. I play both sides, so the level is the same, obviously there is no surprise, although I use a die for specific actions that partially mitigate this problem.

In both games the USSR resists quite well, neither Leningrad, nor Moscow, nor Stalingrad are taken by the axis.

The problem I see is that if the Axis builds between 12 and 15 submarines, the Allies will be left without merchant ships in 1943. And this dooms the Allies.

Now I'm playing a third game with special attention to the MM, to see if in this one I can prevent the allies from running out of MM in 1943.

[ncc1701e]

Usually, I always buy plenty of escorts in 1939/1940 to protect my MM.

[Nirosi]

And also MMs. Allies need to buy escort and MMs, lots. From my games, my experience is that if it goes to 1945, the Allies must expect to lose ~600-700 MMs and ~ 40 escorts and yet still "win" the BoA (assuming about 12 U-boats). Running out of MMs do require to neglect buying them. It must be a serious task at the beginning (10 MMs every second turn in mid-1940 to mid1941 is normal) and remain a small recurrent buy for quite a while.

It is necessary to buy accordingly, I suspect too many players do not buy that many. By "winning the BoA", I mean that by 1943, MMs damage will be quite in control, but the Allies will invest more that the Germans in it (but that is normal).

[Nirosi]

PS: I also learned the hard wait in my first games that if one waits to see 10+ u-boats to start buying MMs and escorts, it is too late. The UK must assume that the Germans will invest in the BoA and start early; better safe than sorry.

[CHINCHIN]

Yes, that happens, MMs take 6 months to be built, if you are careless it is impossible to overcome the situation.

[generalfdog]

Honestly I think the game is in a pretty good place now, for me I could see making USSR weaker in 41 and stronger by 43 and up but I guess it evens out, Leningrad still needs fixed, but also pretty minor it's only 1 hex