Crew Panic needs a bit more realism

Chief Wiggum · Post by **Chief Wiggum** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 9:54 am

Hi all,

I am not a game reviewer nor am I a coding genius. Just a lowly graphic design monkey.
I have a gripe about the way Steel Panthers World At War runs it's crew panic.

The idea of a crew bailing out and panicking is a great one and adds a ton of dimension to the game. There is only one problem as I see it.

I was running a game after work and noticed something. I pounded a Tiger Tank with an IS-4 tank. After my tank dissappeared back into the trees, I ran a Soviet Marine squad into an adjacent hex from where the Crew was waiting. They chopped up 4 of my men, I returned fire, and then my marine squad ran for the hills!

The way I see it, most crews carried small arms in their tanks, as Rifle and ammo was already in a cramped place. Imagine the shock of 122mm shell slamming into your tank, a terrific explosion and your world goes black.

I find it hard to chew that a tank crew with "misc" small arms took out a seasoned group of Soviet Marines. I would rather see the tank crew take a gigantic hit in suppression (or even disperse for that matter). Maybe as my Brother in law suggested, having the tank crew be inoperable for something like two turns until they regain their composure and their surroundings. That would seem a bit more realistic then watching the crew lose their tank, their protection and their health, only to gun down a Marine squad with misc small arms 2 hexs away.

Just a teensy gripe, but SPWAW is still my favorite. Just a thought and not worth two cents.

Sincerely, and best wishes to all,
Mike
AKA: Chief Wiggum
AKA AGAIN: IronicFate

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 12:15 pm

Well, I've never been in the actual situation, but I imagine if I were driven out of my tank in hostile territory the last thing I'd forget was my gun! And there's nothing like the threat of losing one's life to make a person fight like the devil himself.

To say nothing about the fact the crewmen were probably firing from under the tank, between the boogie wheels, with maximum cover & concealment.

[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: Warrior ]

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 5:47 pm

Originally posted by Warrior:
... To say nothing about the fact the crewmen were probably firing from under the tank, between the boogie wheels, with maximum cover & concealment.

[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: Warrior ]

Warrior,

What I've read suggests just the opposite. That last place anyone wanted to be was outside & near a tank that was taking fire. They all new that a tank was a shot magnet! I'll bet the crew would run like hell!

Tommy

headhunter · Post by **headhunter** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 7:04 pm

I think it would depend on the situation. Is the tank burning or has is it just been disabled ? Is there an immediate threat from an enemy tank or is the main threat small arms fire ?

Also these 'small arms' are as stated more than once a generalization. Small arms may mean pistols or more probably SMGs, some handgrenades plus the odd extra weapon 'requisitioned' from friendly troops or taken as a souvenir from the enemy.

The SPWaW engine is not able to handle such differences in detail.

I don't know if this has been mentioned in this context before or how this was handled in WW2, but on modern tanks there is often a MG that can be quickly removed.

Thus a bailed crew might even have a LMG at their disposal ...

Mark Ezra · Post by **Mark Ezra** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 7:20 pm

Crew panic is highly dependendent on the experience an morale ratings of the crew after they bail out. Sometimes the the roll of the dice is gonna favor the crew to be combat active..your Reds moved a few hexes and tooks casualties for their trouble. Seems pretty resonable to me. It's just as likely tha the next crew will be stunned and waiting to die when it fails the morale check the AI runs. IMHO it ain't broke so don't fix it.

Kluckenbill · Post by **Kluckenbill** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 8:14 pm

The issue of heroic crews has been discussed repeatedly on this board. I believe that crew effectiveness has been substantially (and, in my opinion correctly) reduced in version 6.1 versus the older versions.

I'm currently playing a campaign as Germans in 6.1 and I have had far fewer problems with heroic enemy crews than in the past. The crews do fight, as they should, but generally they aren't very good. Also keep in mind that all units have higher capability with higher experience. Thus the German tank crew would (again, in my opinion, correctly) fight beter if they were veterans or elite.

Hopefully you were just the victim of bad luck.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 9:07 pm

I'd like to offer my thoughts on the matter, Mike.

Sometimes in a game we have to create situations that in themselves don't always seem realistic but do convey a feel of realism to general play.

Crews are just that. I concur with most that as a rule, tank crews that abandon a tank look for cover. That happened.

Crews stay generally in the vicinity of their tank to be rescued if possible. They don't go wandering off.

Crews sometimes go back to their tanks when things quieten down and their shattered nerves heal somewhat.

Any enemy hidden in the woods or anywhere can be a danger.

What happened to you does not happen that often, unless a foolish tank commander (not you Mike -

) rushes in blindly.

In the game now, some crews don't even have weapons occasionally. Any force, however, can usually find a way to try to defend themselves.

I remember reading that the Japanese on Tanambogo, when confronted with two Marine Stuarts, began jamming weapons, tree branches and crowbars into the treads of the tanks to stop them. A timely hand grenade tossed down a hatch...Sayanara!

The concept therefore I find valid and what happened to you perhaps extreme...but the pendulum swings both ways. I think it is about as good as we can get it. But then I have a slight bias.

Wild Bill

Chief Wiggum · Post by **Chief Wiggum** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 11:11 pm

Dear all,

Thanks for your input! I agree that extremem situation did happen and Tank crews did go nutz and ended up a bit fanatic in some very limited cases.

It would have been nice to see the crews take a giant suppressive hit, or just stop moving for a few turns to simulate being routed.

Sincerely, and best wishes to all
Mike
AKA: Chief Wiggum
AKA AGAIN: IronicFate

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Mon Jul 23, 2001 11:35 pm

Chief,

You hit upon one situation that seems unrealistic. Well maybe it is but then again maybe not as many have posted here. The real question is not was your ONE situation unrealistic but does the game realistically simulate this situation on the average. Of course some crews win medals and some run away. Was your situation a medal one or an unrealistic simulation by the game engine. May I suggest that when this happens, you play the situation over a number of times and see what the average is? If you get results that seem unrealistic and are REPEATABLE then it is certainly something that may be worth looking into.

Ah now, can anyone tell me how many times a result has to come up "weird" to be statistically significant? E.G if I have a 50% chance to get heads on a fair coin, I could still get 5 heads and 7 tails and it could still be a fair coin. So what numbers should we look at to determine that something is significant?

Thanks