The Abstraction of Amphibious Landings

[Nazcatraz]

I hope this would be addressed in the sequel and the dev would let us load landing crafts along with troops into ships like APs.

This game is already a sequel to the 2004 game War in the Pacific. Hence the Admirals Edition label. Any successor to this game would have to something completely new built from the ground up given the age and increased complexity of the code over the years due to many patches and modifications. Even working the bugs out of the last offical patch out is proving to be a major undertaking.

Gary & Joel are working on a new game that has naval combat in it. I have faith that there's a chance that game could turn out to be the next installation of WITP. Is it guaranteed? Absolutely not! But I want to believe.

[Platoonist]

Gary & Joel are working on a new game that has naval combat in it. I have faith that there's a chance that game could turn out to be the next installation of WITP.

Well, that would certainly clash with his famous quote from the Wargamer in February 2003.

Grigsby concluded during development, "I am never ever, ever, ever doing a game like [War in the Pacific] again.

NSNA.jpg (17.36 KiB) Viewed 1613 times

[Nazcatraz]

Gary & Joel are working on a new game that has naval combat in it. I have faith that there's a chance that game could turn out to be the next installation of WITP.

Well, that would certainly clash with his famous quote from the Wargamer in February 2003.

Grigsby concluded during development, "I am never ever, ever, ever doing a game like [War in the Pacific] again.

NSNA.jpg

Oh yeah trust me. I too know about that famous quote. But let's be real here, that was from nearly 22 years ago. People could change their mind after a month or two. And it has been nearly 22 years.

[HansBolter]

Unfortunately, I have not been overly impressed with Gary's latest efforts. Neither War in the West, nor War in the East 2 come even close to the level of AE. And to be fair, AE, while built on Gary's original game, was not an effort by Gary.

Where WitW and WitE2 are lacking is in graphic involvement of the player in combat resolution. Even WitP and AE lack graphic involvement of the player in land combat, but at least they partially got it right in naval and air combat. Giving me something to actually look at, rather than simply forcing me to read text, while combat is being resolved, is what hooked me on this game.

It's truly a shame that the design effort on the land game side of this game took such a backseat to the air and naval design. I affectionately refer to the land game as the bastard red headed step child of the design. It took a very, very long time for me to get a real handle on the land game and understand that much of what is important is semi-hidden from the player.

Why is it important to keep making Bombardment attacks turn after turn when almost no casualties are resulting from it? Because by doing so you are forcing the enemy to expend supply, driving down morale and suppressing disruption recovery. The effects of combat on morale and disruption are not reported in the combat results. Players have to dig to find these stats and monitoring these stats are crucial to effective management of land combat.

Now I'm rambling and am far from the original point. Have far too much to say to git it all in one post......


Ps....completely forgot about fatigue. Along with morale and disruption these are the triad of land combat effectiveness. The effects of combat on this triad are not reported to the player. The player must dig for them and monitoring them is essential to knowing when to launch an attack.

[Platoonist]

Where WitW and WitE2 are lacking is in graphic involvement of the player in combat resolution. Even WitP and AE lack graphic involvement of the player in land combat, but at least they partially got it right in naval and air combat. Giving me something to actually look at, rather than simply forcing me to read text, while combat is being resolved, is what hooked me on this game.

I'd certainly have to agree with you there. Air combat in War in the West is tedious to watch unless you turn off the detail and then you have no real grasp on what transpired that turn unless you pore through some obtuse displays. As static as the graphics in War in the Pacific can be what's happening on the left below is still more engaging than round after round of what's happening on the right.

air-combat-text.jpg (37.69 KiB) Viewed 1478 times

Air combat also plays out faster in WitP since you're not getting a gun-by-gun transaction. I'm not sure why they bothered to have named pilots in WitW either. They're never mentioned in combat, and you have little agency over them. And don't get me started on the complete absence of a naval component. Both sides have to contest control of the sea exclusively with land-based airpower but watching "Naval Air Interdiction" numbers display hex-by-hex is even duller than watching air recon.

[Nazcatraz]

While WITW and WITE2 both have their issues that I could complain about, I really can't bring myself to talk shit about them. After all, WITE2 remains the most detailed and immersive Eastern Front video game on the market (and WITW for the Western Front). If they are number 2, then are is no number 1. Things like the absence of naval combat in WITW and, as you guys mentioned, the lack of air war animations make it feel less impactful compared to WITP: AE. Additionally, the strategic bombing campaign doesn’t feel quite right with its one-week turns, and its impact feels minimal as well.

For WITE2, naval combat isn’t necessary, so I have no complaints there. The air war is also well-done (even though it's not particularly impactful outside of Ground Support and Naval Patrol for Odessa and Sevastopol) with a very good air UI. What bothers me is how the industry mechanics feel pretty meaningless, especially with fuel and oil being irrelevant, even though they were crucial for Germany historically. While it has many flaws, what it does well, it does very well. And that is land combat and its Order of Battle. WITE2's OOB is top-notch. If there were 200 Panther tanks during the Battle of Kursk, you'll find 200 Panther tanks in the game. The ability for players to indirectly control troop placements across other theaters is really impressive. The ground combat is amazing, with a clear command structure from Army Group to Army, to Corps, to Divisions. It’s so detailed that it’s almost painful when I compare it to WITP: AE’s OOB and army structure. It's such a pain to go around the map in WITP AE looking for a Corps or Army HQ.

This is why I hope all those improvements in OOB and ground combat can be implemented into a new WITP. While I understand that the Admiral's Edition was created by a team (Henderson Field Designs) that’s no longer together, we still have the OG talents like Gary, Joel (and possibly Pavel). And if anyone knows what to do with a new WITP, it's them.

[Yaab]

Yep, ground combat in WiTE is more detailed, however WiTP:AE has daily turns and thus its ground combat feels more, I don't know,... granular? Better illusion of player input?

[HansBolter]

The air game in WitE2 is one of the worst implementations I have ever seen with regard to player involvement. Air combat resolution often results in the screen being centered on the air HQs while combat takes place off screen in locations hidden from the player.

I couldn't agree more that the abstractions necessary to facilitate weekly turns are hard to accept after being hooked on the player involvement that a daily turn game provides.

Once again, AE and it's predecessor reign Supreme.
Hands down, best game ever made.

[Nazcatraz]

I do agree that while I really love WITE2 & WITW, WITP AE remains my favorite Gary Grigsby title ever. If I have to rank them based on personal preferences, it would be like this:

1. WITP AE
2. WITE2
3. WITW

The details in WITP AE is just simply insane. The differences between Japan and Allies industry are superb!! Plus the dynamic strategy choices players can have is super amazing. When in WITW, it's always Sicily -> Mainland Italy -> Landing in France. And for WITE2 it's always Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov/Kursk. That is just how those theaters work based on history so I can't blame those games.

I was actually wondering what if WITE2 has a 1-day turn cycle like WITP AE, and check out the WITE2 Discord's reaction:



Until Gary & Joel announce their new game and it turn out to not be a WITP sequel, I will never stop day dreaming about a new WITP with all the new QOL improvements that a 2020s Gary Grigsby title could get with improved UI, OOB, command structure and better land combat. Before I was deep into WITP AE, I always hoped that it would turn out to be War in Europe, but now I pray for it to be WITP2 or WITP3 for those of you that keep calling AE WITP2.

[Zovs]

I do agree that while I really love WITE2 & WITW, WITP AE remains my favorite Gary Grigsby title ever. If I have to rank them based on personal preferences, it would be like this:

1. WITP AE
2. WITE2
3. WITW

The details in WITP AE is just simply insane. The differences between Japan and Allies industry are superb!! Plus the dynamic strategy choices players can have is super amazing. When in WITW, it's always Sicily -> Mainland Italy -> Landing in France. And for WITE2 it's always Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov/Kursk. That is just how those theaters work based on history so I can't blame those games.

I was actually wondering what if WITE2 has a 1-day turn cycle like WITP AE, and check out the WITE2 Discord's reaction:



Until Gary & Joel announce their new game and it turn out to not be a WITP sequel, I will never stop day dreaming about a new WITP with all the new QOL improvements that a 2020s Gary Grigsby title could get with improved UI, OOB, command structure and better land combat. Before I was deep into WITP AE, I always hoped that it would turn out to be War in Europe, but now I pray for it to be WITP2 or WITP3 for those of you that keep calling AE WITP2.

I am pretty sure Joel said that both Gary and him are now in their 70s and they are looking forward to retiring and WITE2 was their last swan song as they ride off into the distance with the sun on their shoulders. Not to mention Gary said he never wanted to work on another Pacific type of game. So I hate to be the bearer of bad news for you and shattering your dream but don't waste your time waiting for WITP-AE-2, it ain't going to happen, and I don't think we will see a War in Europe sequel tidying in WITW and WITE2. Lastly the promised Steel Tigers (the successor to Steel Panthers) was talked about over 10 years ago (maybe 15) and that has never materialized, so I think Joel and Gary and Keith are off riding the sunsets on a much deserved retirement.

Dreaming of anything that they might make is just a pipe dream and a waste of time if you ask me, that sun has set, the ship has sailed and the dust is in the wind.

[Nazcatraz]

I do agree that while I really love WITE2 & WITW, WITP AE remains my favorite Gary Grigsby title ever. If I have to rank them based on personal preferences, it would be like this:

1. WITP AE
2. WITE2
3. WITW

The details in WITP AE is just simply insane. The differences between Japan and Allies industry are superb!! Plus the dynamic strategy choices players can have is super amazing. When in WITW, it's always Sicily -> Mainland Italy -> Landing in France. And for WITE2 it's always Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov/Kursk. That is just how those theaters work based on history so I can't blame those games.

I was actually wondering what if WITE2 has a 1-day turn cycle like WITP AE, and check out the WITE2 Discord's reaction:



Until Gary & Joel announce their new game and it turn out to not be a WITP sequel, I will never stop day dreaming about a new WITP with all the new QOL improvements that a 2020s Gary Grigsby title could get with improved UI, OOB, command structure and better land combat. Before I was deep into WITP AE, I always hoped that it would turn out to be War in Europe, but now I pray for it to be WITP2 or WITP3 for those of you that keep calling AE WITP2.

I am pretty sure Joel said that both Gary and him are now in their 70s and they are looking forward to retiring and WITE2 was their last swan song as they ride off into the distance with the sun on their shoulders. Not to mention Gary said he never wanted to work on another Pacific type of game. So I hate to be the bearer of bad news for you and shattering your dream but don't waste your time waiting for WITP-AE-2, it ain't going to happen, and I don't think we will see a War in Europe sequel tidying in WITW and WITE2. Lastly the promised Steel Tigers (the successor to Steel Panthers) was talked about over 10 years ago (maybe 15) and that has never materialized, so I think Joel and Gary and Keith are off riding the sunsets on a much deserved retirement.

Dreaming of anything that they might make is just a pipe dream and a waste of time if you ask me, that sun has set, the ship has sailed and the dust is in the wind.

They are working on a new game that has naval combat in it.

[RangerJoe]

I do agree that while I really love WITE2 & WITW, WITP AE remains my favorite Gary Grigsby title ever. If I have to rank them based on personal preferences, it would be like this:

1. WITP AE
2. WITE2
3. WITW

The details in WITP AE is just simply insane. The differences between Japan and Allies industry are superb!! Plus the dynamic strategy choices players can have is super amazing. When in WITW, it's always Sicily -> Mainland Italy -> Landing in France. And for WITE2 it's always Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov/Kursk. That is just how those theaters work based on history so I can't blame those games.

I was actually wondering what if WITE2 has a 1-day turn cycle like WITP AE, and check out the WITE2 Discord's reaction:



Until Gary & Joel announce their new game and it turn out to not be a WITP sequel, I will never stop day dreaming about a new WITP with all the new QOL improvements that a 2020s Gary Grigsby title could get with improved UI, OOB, command structure and better land combat. Before I was deep into WITP AE, I always hoped that it would turn out to be War in Europe, but now I pray for it to be WITP2 or WITP3 for those of you that keep calling AE WITP2.

I am pretty sure Joel said that both Gary and him are now in their 70s and they are looking forward to retiring and WITE2 was their last swan song as they ride off into the distance with the sun on their shoulders. Not to mention Gary said he never wanted to work on another Pacific type of game. So I hate to be the bearer of bad news for you and shattering your dream but don't waste your time waiting for WITP-AE-2, it ain't going to happen, and I don't think we will see a War in Europe sequel tidying in WITW and WITE2. Lastly the promised Steel Tigers (the successor to Steel Panthers) was talked about over 10 years ago (maybe 15) and that has never materialized, so I think Joel and Gary and Keith are off riding the sunsets on a much deserved retirement.

Dreaming of anything that they might make is just a pipe dream and a waste of time if you ask me, that sun has set, the ship has sailed and the dust is in the wind.

They are working on a new game that has naval combat in it.

Then go play that game . . .

[Nazcatraz]

I am pretty sure Joel said that both Gary and him are now in their 70s and they are looking forward to retiring and WITE2 was their last swan song as they ride off into the distance with the sun on their shoulders. Not to mention Gary said he never wanted to work on another Pacific type of game. So I hate to be the bearer of bad news for you and shattering your dream but don't waste your time waiting for WITP-AE-2, it ain't going to happen, and I don't think we will see a War in Europe sequel tidying in WITW and WITE2. Lastly the promised Steel Tigers (the successor to Steel Panthers) was talked about over 10 years ago (maybe 15) and that has never materialized, so I think Joel and Gary and Keith are off riding the sunsets on a much deserved retirement.

Dreaming of anything that they might make is just a pipe dream and a waste of time if you ask me, that sun has set, the ship has sailed and the dust is in the wind.

They are working on a new game that has naval combat in it.

Then go play that game . . .

?

[homer82]

I am pretty sure Joel said that both Gary and him are now in their 70s and they are looking forward to retiring and WITE2 was their last swan song as they ride off into the distance with the sun on their shoulders. Not to mention Gary said he never wanted to work on another Pacific type of game. So I hate to be the bearer of bad news for you and shattering your dream but don't waste your time waiting for WITP-AE-2, it ain't going to happen, and I don't think we will see a War in Europe sequel tidying in WITW and WITE2. Lastly the promised Steel Tigers (the successor to Steel Panthers) was talked about over 10 years ago (maybe 15) and that has never materialized, so I think Joel and Gary and Keith are off riding the sunsets on a much deserved retirement.

Dreaming of anything that they might make is just a pipe dream and a waste of time if you ask me, that sun has set, the ship has sailed and the dust is in the wind.

They are working on a new game that has naval combat in it.

Then go play that game . . .

Being the *star* of a new PSA exploring colorectal cancer has certainly gone to someone's head!

[RangerJoe]

They are working on a new game that has naval combat in it.

Then go play that game . . .

Being the *star* of a new PSA exploring colorectal cancer has certainly gone to someone's head!

You are doing that!? Have fun with that situation . . .

[Edmon]

Lets keep our discussions civil please.

I don't want to have to hand out warnings...

Regards,
Edmon

[Sardaukar]

Even when us WitP-AE enthusiasts would like to see some sort of "World War All-Fronts Special", I doubt anyone could play that...

Anyone else tried these:

https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/The_Europa_Series

We managed few turns in buddy's garage before his cat came in and nuked it...

[RangerJoe]

Even when us WitP-AE enthusiasts would like to see some sort of "World War All-Fronts Special", I doubt anyone could play that...

Anyone else tried these:

https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/The_Europa_Series

We managed few turns in buddy's garage before his cat came in and nuked it...

Nope, but my brother did have a cat that like to roll the dice. He also chewed on them. I guess that he figured that if we could play with the dice then he could as well.

[Sardaukar]

People wanting monster games usually never played wargame monster games.

WitP-AE is as hard-core as it. Want some more?

[RangerJoe]

People wanting monster games usually never played wargame monster games.

WitP-AE is as hard-core as it. Want some more?

How about in even more detail!