Khrushchev's War, Day 1 - The Battle of Elefsina -- new beta for testing

[Mgellis]

Another new beta in my Khrushchev's War series. This is a moderately large scenario...basically, two air wings face off against each other in the opening hours of World War III in 1957.

As always, please provide any feedback you can. I'm interested in hearing what people have to say about the set-up, the basic situation, how the "story" unfolds, the orders (how they're phrased, if they make sense, etc.), the events/messages that occur in the first hour of the scenario, the units chosen, missions, gameplay, scoring, etc.

I'm particularly interested in hearing what people say about this one because...I don't know how to beat it. So is it a "fair" scenario, is it not actually that hard and I'm just a terrible player (a definite possibility), is it beatable, or maybe is it a scenario where you can't really win but you can limit how bad the damage is and that should be reflected in the orders, scoring, etc.?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to your feedback. Thanks in advance!

Tanagra 4.JPG (295.93 KiB) Viewed 532 times

Tanagra 5.JPG (349.11 KiB) Viewed 532 times

[HalfLifeExpert]

Neat! Just what I needed!

Sadly I need to go into work early tomorrow so I can't actually play it now, but I've had a look and printed the briefing.

Given that this seems to be amongst the opening salvos of the war, this may not necessarily need to be one where the player NEEDS to "win", but rather just inflict as much damage on Soviet A/C as possible.

The briefing indicated that Hellenic Air Force Pilots are still under some degree of conversion training for the Sidewinder, so this is a crash baptism by fire and they can't be expected to perform at top quality.

[HalfLifeExpert]

I'm about six hours (game-time) into the scenario, and things have died down after a massive air battle over the Aegean.

I thought I would share my thoughts at this stage. First losses/expenditures after the major battle:

AS OF: 4/25/1957 9:36:07 AM

SIDE: Greece
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
7x Ammo Shelter
1x Building (Control Tower)
8x F-102A Delta Dagger
42x F-86E Sabre
1x Radar (AN/TPS-10 + AN/TPS-1D [AN/TPS-15])


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
127x 12.7mm/50 MG x 6 Burst [150 rnds]
152x 40mm/60 Twin Bofors Burst [4 rnds]
23x AIM-4D Falcon
33x AIM-4F Falcon [SARH]
88x AIM-9B Sidewinder
133x Mk4 Mighty Mouse Rocket (Mk40)



SIDE: Warsaw Pact
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
22x Il-28 Beagle
20x MiG-15bis B Fagot
6x MiG-19P Farmer B
6x Tu-16 Badger A
3x Tu-4 Bull


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
1x 23mm AM-23 Burst [25 rnds]
44x 23mm AM-23 x 2 Burst [50 rnds]
25x 23mm AM-23 x 2 Burst [50 rnds]
227x 23mm NR-23 x 2 Burst [40 rnds]
44x 23mm Twin Burst [20 rnds]
54x 37mm N-37 Burst [10 rnds]
17x AA-2a Atoll [R-3S]
30x FAB-1000M-62 GPB
276x FAB-500M-54 GPB



SIDE: Neutrals
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------

By far and away the main killer of my fighters were the defensive guns of Soviet bombers. In the case of the Greek Sabres, they often came under effective fire once they were within effective range to shoot their Sidewinders. The 23mm armament of the Tu-4 Bulls were particularly devastating. Most of my fighters, especially the F-102s, took damage quite early in their respective engagements.

I've encountered this sort of thing in other scenarios, and I think, perhaps Command over-values the effectiveness of defensive guns on bombers. They were of somewhat limited effectiveness in WW2, with the main effect being deterring or throwing off the aim of attacking fighters. They were most effective, I believe, in those massed box formations of allied bombers that could have overlapping fields of fire. In this battle, I was losing Sabres left and right to bombers that were effectively separate from their comrades.

If defensive guns were THIS good, why would anyone bother with fighter escorts?! /s

I like the scenario, I just think that the system makes defensive armament on bombers a bit more effective then they aught to be. I don't know what you can do as a scenario designer to minimize this effect.

But what I CAN suggest is make the player's side default Air Doctrine switch to the Weapon state that allows targets of opportunity with air-to-air guns. This should be the default in any Pre-1970 scenario that features aircraft that have cannon/MGs as a main armament, with or without missiles included.

[Mgellis]

Yeah, that's a bit better than how I was doing (my losses were about the same, but I was not bringing down quite as many enemy aircraft)...

I will be very interested to hear what people recommend for this one.

I am thinking of making the scenario shorter...I wanted to give both sides time to re-arm, etc., but I wonder if I should just make the scenario something like 15 or 16 hours (until night falls) and at the end of the day let the Greeks see how well they did.

One question...have I just made the Soviets too strong for the number of targets they're going after. I figured three or four squadrons of bombers for two air bases and a port and a couple of radar sites was pretty reasonable. And are 2 fighters per bomber a reasonable ratio or should it be lower, like 1-for-1?

I have switched "Engage opportunity targets" to "Yes (engage any contacts)" at the side level for Greece. I was not sure if there were other settings that should be changed. (I checked the WRA settings, but there did not seem to be any that seemed relevant.)

Thanks.

[Nikel]

I got an average result with 235 points.


I think there are errors in the locations and names of the greek radars:

The 9th radar was the 2nd, 9th is right now and the location in Pilio is not Mount Pelion in Thessaly? I see it in Euboea Island. Also "In 1957 RADARs were replaced by FPS-8 and FPS-6." Though no month is cited.

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/9t ... port-post/

I see 2 10th, but the one in Mount Chortiatis should be the 1st

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/10 ... port-post/

The 2nd NACC it is said that was in Kavouri.

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/2nd-narcs/

I would call the 1st right now, by elimination the 3rd, because no name is given in the 50s.

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/1s ... -squadron/





It took to me some time to realize that the Beagle bombers attack at low altitude, bellow the Sidewinder minimum requirement.

Should be enough with a one day battle, considering the scenario consists only of waves of ACs attacks, the second day may be tedious.

Missed a message at the end of the scenario telling you what happened after the attack, depending on your result of course.

When the attack seemed to stop, tried to destroy the red radar. But could not. With the "small arms" of the Sabres, only light damage. Tried loading bombs, but they did not take off during the scenario time, but they did it after the time has finished, is it a bug?

SB.gif (62.67 KiB) Viewed 410 times

Just in case, beside Tanagra more ABs were already active with F-84s

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/110-combat-wing/

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/111-combat-wing/

AS OF: 27/04/1957 3:02:00

SIDE: Greece
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
3x A/C Hangar (4x Large Aircraft)
3x Ammo Shelter
1x Building (Control Tower)
1x Diesel (750k Liter Tank)
5x F-102A Delta Dagger
37x F-86E Sabre
2x M42A1 40mm Twin (Duster)
2x Radar (AN/TPS-10 + AN/TPS-1D [AN/TPS-15])
1x Structure (Pier [Large, 25.1-45m])


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
58x 12.7mm/50 MG x 6 Burst [150 rnds]
724x 40mm/60 Twin Bofors Burst [4 rnds]
8x AIM-26B Falcon
10x AIM-4D Falcon
48x AIM-4F Falcon [SARH]
1x AIM-4G Falcon [IR]
122x AIM-9B Sidewinder
109x Mk4 Mighty Mouse Rocket (Mk40)



SIDE: Warsaw Pact
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
17x Il-28 Beagle
31x MiG-15bis B Fagot
2x MiG-19P Farmer B
9x Tu-16 Badger A
8x Tu-4 Bull


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
2x 23mm AM-23 Burst [25 rnds]
16x 23mm AM-23 x 2 Burst [50 rnds]
3x 23mm AM-23 x 2 Burst [50 rnds]
328x 23mm NR-23 x 2 Burst [40 rnds]
57x 23mm Twin Burst [20 rnds]
86x 37mm N-37 Burst [10 rnds]
27x AA-2a Atoll [R-3S]
12x FAB-1000M-62 GPB
172x FAB-500M-54 GPB



SIDE: Neutrals
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------

[HalfLifeExpert]

One question...have I just made the Soviets too strong for the number of targets they're going after. I figured three or four squadrons of bombers for two air bases and a port and a couple of radar sites was pretty reasonable. And are 2 fighters per bomber a reasonable ratio or should it be lower, like 1-for-1?

I don't think that's the issue, as in many cases, at the point of contact, it was often 1v1, partially due to the strung out nature of the Soviet bombers, and partly due to the AI behavior of my fighters.

[Stanley_The_Rolmate]

I got an average result with 235 points.


I think there are errors in the locations and names of the greek radars:

The 9th radar was the 2nd, 9th is right now and the location in Pilio is not Mount Pelion in Thessaly? I see it in Euboea Island. Also "In 1957 RADARs were replaced by FPS-8 and FPS-6." Though no month is cited.

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/9t ... port-post/

I see 2 10th, but the one in Mount Chortiatis should be the 1st

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/10 ... port-post/

The 2nd NACC it is said that was in Kavouri.

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/2nd-narcs/

I would call the 1st right now, by elimination the 3rd, because no name is given in the 50s.

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/1s ... -squadron/





It took to me some time to realize that the Beagle bombers attack at low altitude, bellow the Sidewinder minimum requirement.

Should be enough with a one day battle, considering the scenario consists only of waves of ACs attacks, the second day may be tedious.

Missed a message at the end of the scenario telling you what happened after the attack, depending on your result of course.

When the attack seemed to stop, tried to destroy the red radar. But could not. With the "small arms" of the Sabres, only light damage. Tried loading bombs, but they did not take off during the scenario time, but they did it after the time has finished, is it a bug?



SB.gif



Just in case, beside Tanagra more ABs were already active with F-84s

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/110-combat-wing/

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/111-combat-wing/

AS OF: 27/04/1957 3:02:00

SIDE: Greece
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
3x A/C Hangar (4x Large Aircraft)
3x Ammo Shelter
1x Building (Control Tower)
1x Diesel (750k Liter Tank)
5x F-102A Delta Dagger
37x F-86E Sabre
2x M42A1 40mm Twin (Duster)
2x Radar (AN/TPS-10 + AN/TPS-1D [AN/TPS-15])
1x Structure (Pier [Large, 25.1-45m])


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
58x 12.7mm/50 MG x 6 Burst [150 rnds]
724x 40mm/60 Twin Bofors Burst [4 rnds]
8x AIM-26B Falcon
10x AIM-4D Falcon
48x AIM-4F Falcon [SARH]
1x AIM-4G Falcon [IR]
122x AIM-9B Sidewinder
109x Mk4 Mighty Mouse Rocket (Mk40)



SIDE: Warsaw Pact
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
17x Il-28 Beagle
31x MiG-15bis B Fagot
2x MiG-19P Farmer B
9x Tu-16 Badger A
8x Tu-4 Bull


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
2x 23mm AM-23 Burst [25 rnds]
16x 23mm AM-23 x 2 Burst [50 rnds]
3x 23mm AM-23 x 2 Burst [50 rnds]
328x 23mm NR-23 x 2 Burst [40 rnds]
57x 23mm Twin Burst [20 rnds]
86x 37mm N-37 Burst [10 rnds]
27x AA-2a Atoll [R-3S]
12x FAB-1000M-62 GPB
172x FAB-500M-54 GPB



SIDE: Neutrals
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------

When the attack seemed to stop, tried to destroy the red radar. But could not. With the "small arms" of the Sabres, only light damage. Tried loading bombs, but they did not take off during the scenario time, but they did it after the time has finished, is it a bug?

Was it nighttime when the aircraft didn't want to take off? If so this is propably what caused the behavior that you were seeing.

[Nikel]

Oh, you are right it was that, the night.

No time left for the last attack.

[Mgellis]

Thanks for spotting the issues. I went over the radar sites again and I think I've got them in more accurate locations. I also got rid of the "echo" radar site that got added by accident somehow.

A minor issue here was that the topographic maps in Command often use the local language. While I've read plenty of Greeks--I used to be a professor of rhetoric--I don't read Greek itself. So tracking down the exact mountain, etc. where the radar was located sometimes involved looking at Google maps, looking at Command, and back and forth a couple of times until I found what I think is the right spot.

I think the radars got upgraded later in the year (the scenario is set in late April), so I'm sticking with the earlier ones. I'm not sure it will make much difference.

Thanks again for the help.

I got an average result with 235 points.


I think there are errors in the locations and names of the greek radars:

The 9th radar was the 2nd, 9th is right now and the location in Pilio is not Mount Pelion in Thessaly? I see it in Euboea Island. Also "In 1957 RADARs were replaced by FPS-8 and FPS-6." Though no month is cited.

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/9t ... port-post/

I see 2 10th, but the one in Mount Chortiatis should be the 1st

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/10 ... port-post/

The 2nd NACC it is said that was in Kavouri.

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/2nd-narcs/

I would call the 1st right now, by elimination the 3rd, because no name is given in the 50s.

https://www.haf.gr/en/structure/htaf/1s ... -squadron/

[Mgellis]

Any other thoughts on or suggestions for this scenario? Or is it ready for the Community Scenario Pack?

Also, any requests for specific scenarios you would like to see in this campaign? I'm assuming a lot of it will involve bombing raids/air-to-air battles, convoy missions, and hunting down a zillion or so Whiskey- and Zulu-class submarines. The land battles, of course, are not a strong point for Command, but there's certainly room for using aircraft to attack tank columns, etc. What else am I missing?

A bit of background...

I'm assuming the Soviets start the war by using air power to smash as many ships, planes, air bases, as they can in the early days of the war. Their main motive is that Soviet leadership was shaken by the various crises of 1956 and decided they had to make their big move to take the rest of Germany soon or they would be outpaced by the West. By 1957, they are ready to act. They want to avoid using nuclear weapons...they figure nuking the cities they want to conquer for their factories, industrial capabilities, etc. won't really work very well.

They also use paratroopers (lots of them) to attack spots in Germany, northern Turkey, Greece, and northern Norway. (From what I can tell, the Soviets had very limited amphibious capabilities in 1957, so they are relying on airborne attacks instead. This obviously limits how much heavy equipment like tanks and artillery they can bring in to these locations early on, which may be important later.) In the first few weeks, they make a lot of gains. They also blow up a lot of aircraft, smash a lot of airfields, and sink a lot of ships. The Soviets take losses, of course, but they mostly have control of Germany and access to the Black Sea by the end of May.

At this point, they slow their advance because they are worried about getting overextended (and they do capture much of West Germany, etc. so they have achieved their main war goals). So, by the end of May, they have control of a lot more of Europe. NATO is now beginning the long, slow process of chipping away at their defenses, using convoys to build up troop levels, etc. NATO won't try to liberate Tromso or Hamburg or Istanbul for quite a while, but that's what they will ultimately have to do.

Any thoughts on all this? Is this a plausible backstory for the campaign or am I making any really stupid mistakes here?
And, again, are there specific scenarios you would like to see for this campaign?

Thanks in advance!