Flak Value numbers of "Show Map Flak" view

[Wiedrock]

Show map flak: Displays the flak value of a given hex, can be limited to only
show flak generated by AA units in cities or all the flak affecting a hex;

The game has the function of "Show Map Flak" (key SHIFT+O).
The numbers shown by this option are bloated by small arms data which is not excluded from caltculating the Flak Value shown in the Hexes.

Show_Map_Flak_Option.png (173.14 KiB) Viewed 884 times

Anti-Aircraft fire can occur both when the planes reach their target and as they move
from their base to the target hex(es).
Flak values can be seen by depressing the relevant tab (6.2), right clicking on a hex
or using the hotkey/
Display options are to show no flak, only that in cities or all flak values.
Numbers displayed are between 0 and 9 to indicate intensity of flak, with the left
number being low/mid altitude (below 20k feet) and the right number being high
altitude (above 20K). With FOW enabled, the accuracy of the flak values will vary
depending on the detection level of the AA support units.

Errata 01.02.06:
[...]
Non-flak elements were being added into the anti-aircraft count in cases when
they should not have been. This was a display only issue as they weren’t
actually adding to the anti-aircraft value firing at the aircraft. This has been
fixed.
Non-flak elements will never fire at aircraft flying into or through and adjacent
hex. This was rare before, but has been removed entirely.

First thing to note is, that non-flak elements are still visible in the Anti-Aircraft Section, this happens to all units that have any LMG equipped (which has an Max Ceiling of above 1000ft), no idea if they actually shoot or not, but they are listed, rarely, often just a single element, but listed. Tanks (e.g. StuG, StuH) with AAMGs are regularly listed, not sure if that's intentional or if they are "Flak Elements" in this case ...or if they shoot at all.

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Second, altough they never fire, all the small arms (Rifles/SMGs/SARifles/[LMGs]) still have "Anti Air" values and also Max Ceiling/Effective Ceiling numbers (besides the LMG all below 1000ft). Due to this fact they are included in "the left number being low/mid altitude (below 20k feet)". This massively falsifies the shown number (especially the Soviet Flak Value numbers since there are generally more elements of which especially SMGs seem to provide a massive boost to the "Flak Value" without providing any actual Flak protection).
When removing the "Anti Air" and/or Ceiling values from small arms the numbers drop significantly and may provide a less adulterated information on the actual Flak value of a Hex.
Not sure about the normal LMGs (those that are not named "AA"), whether they are now supposed to shoot or not (most likely they are/shall not), so removing the Anti-Air and/or Ceiling values off the LMGs would correct this wrong number another time to be even more accurate.

Show_Map_Flak_Option_fixed-small-arms.png (453.25 KiB) Viewed 884 times

[Wiedrock]

Tanks (e.g. StuG, StuH) with AAMGs are regularly listed, not sure if that's intentional or if they are "Flak Elements" in this case ...or if they shoot at all.

They shoot.

AAMG_StuG.png (264.59 KiB) Viewed 854 times

First thing to note is, that non-flak elements are still visible in the Anti-Aircraft Section, this happens to all units that have any LMG equipped (which has an Max Ceiling of above 1000ft), no idea if they actually shoot or not, but they are listed, rarely, often just a single element, but listed.

[EDIT] Adding 500 Rifle Squads with improved LMGs (altitude/Anti-Air) keeps occasionally ~3 of those squads popping up in the Anti Air area they do not rly destroy planes but damage them (the ones having missions at 1k altitude).

[Joel Billings]

Small arms can get added to a "flak" total for the hex, so they can contribute to disruption on bombers (how Pavel explained it to me just a few days ago). I didn't get the full details, and the note you reference talks about never firing/contributing to adjacent hexes. They should contribute if flown over. Are you saying they get listed even when someone flies into an adjacent hex? It's already on my list to find out a few more details when I speak to him next week, so it would be good to clarify what I should be asking. Thanks.

[Wiedrock]

Edited my previous post. The LMGs of the Squads are mostly damaging planes (which is fine), just can't be observed in game without reading the logs.

and the note you reference talks about never firing/contributing to adjacent hexes.
[...]
Are you saying they get listed even when someone flies into an adjacent hex?

Okay thanks, I guess I have missunderstood the the quote wrong then.
This "adjacent Hex thing" seems to be fine, only the 20k+ guns get listed.

So the Squads in the target Hex are supposed to do AA and being listed, then all is fine in that regard (those that have LMG do fire/damage).

---

Small arms can get added to a "flak" total for the hex, so they can contribute to disruption on bombers (how Pavel explained it to me just a few days ago).

That's something I assumed it could be like, but then my questions would be:
- in how far it'd make sense to have a 500ft Ceiling SMG (which shouldn't hit anything anyways) disrupting a 19,000ft Bomber would make any sense.
- Or whether this ominous DISruption is supposed to be the same one in the DIS Collumn of the Combat Report?!
- Or whether the Flak Value of this DISruption in a Hex is capped at "9" if shown like that on the Map.
When I set up the same Mission of GA Railway Interdiction (I am using this AD-Mission because it has generally "big numbers in the thousands") into an empty Hex and run it 5 times and do the same but with 3 CUs in the Hex (without proper AA) which I have given 5000 Sturm Squads each (having LMGs with above 1k Ceiling and StGs with below 1k Ceiling) I get the Hex to be a "Flak Value" of 9. But the Result of a Week of missions is (with lots of RNG) about the same, despite the LMGs actually damaging few of the Il-2s during that week (on top of the suggested Disruption by other small arms - SMGs, StGs, Carbines and such, which are also boosting the "Flak Value" of the Hex massivley to become 9). So at least I am unable to observe the Disruption effect by small arms.
In other words, small arms, despite being shown as "9" on map cause no serious (if at all) change to the Mission Effect added to a Hex.
If I instead add 36x 2cm AA to the Hex I get an Flak Value of ~5-6 and the Mission's effects are drastically reduced. If this is due to the fact that the "real Flak" is now actually shooting down/damaging MANY planes or due to the ominous DISruption I am not sure about, but I highly feel like 99% being the actual shooting...or rather... hitting/damaging/destroying, rather than any disruption.
This guess I'd underline with the fact,that even the presence of actual Flak, actively shooting does not rly changethe DIS in the Combat report, there are Flights that lose 2-3 of 24 planes to Flak and still only have 1-3 DISruption in their collumn.

DIS: The percentage of disruption to the aircraft flight, which results in a coordination penalty that reduces the effectiveness of the flight during air combat and attacks on ground targets.

At least I interpret this quote in a way that the DIS collumn should go up by Flak and such, but as stated before, there are Flights losing planes to flak and not getting any increase in DISruption, so the DIS collumn looks about the same with Flak in a Hex, with small arms in a Hex or with an empty Hex, doing Railway Interdiction.

[Joel Billings]

Thanks for the additional info. My understanding is that the systems used for flak in ground support and in the air phase are different, although I could be wrong about that. When I ask about the values, I'll ask about how the differences might play out in the two phases. If there are differences in how direct ground support versus air phase missions are handled, then the value displayed on map may be misleading for one of the two (could be other things going on, this is just one possible explanation, there are probably others). In this game, we often ended up realizing that we could not easily account for all the factors in all cases in the various pre-combat and even some post combat values displayed. Basically the systems are not written to be easily summed up in a display, let alone that sometimes they are trying to account for two different systems with a similar display for both.

[M60A3TTS]

Really nice work on this and some other stuff lately. Keep it up!

Maybe on subject of AA, someone can tell me why the Soviet 37mm AA gun seems to show up in every AA engagement, but the 85mm's only on a few occasions. This despite the fact that your typical Soviet AA regiment (43 version anyways) have equal numbers of both elements.

[Joel Billings]

Spoke to Pavel and Gary about some of these flak issues and here's what I found out:

1) Devices that are not AA guns or flak (device types 4 and 23) have a greatly reduced chance of being included in the flak calculation against any given air attack. The ground elements that had a device included in the AA defensive firepower, are listed in the combat report. Very few rifle squads get included, but Stugs with AAMGs are ok to be included. In looking at this, Pavel agreed that the display is overstating the value of these non-AA weapons. Currently, the system divides their value by 4, but we're thinking it probably should be something like /100 or worse. If someone attaches a save (or emails it to 2by3@2by3games.com) so I can run the air phase and/or a ground combat, Pavel can run though an attack and will adjust down the value being displayed for these non-AA weapons.
2) Any weapon using flak has to check against it's ceiling. In addition to not firing above your ceiling, weapons that have a high ceiling, will not fire at low flying aircraft (I didn't get the details on just what elevations a device will fire).
3) As the manual says the system assumes that at low altitude the speed of the aircraft becomes crucial (faster aircraft are much harder to hit at low altitude). At high altitude, speed is less important, while the accuracy of the AA device becomes more important along with the altitude itself. So fly fast and low or high and slow. Depending on the kinds of flak you are up against, sometimes flying at mid-altitude will attract the most flak fire. Some of you have probably figured this out, and much of these systems trace their lineage back to Bomb the Reich (but with many modifications since then).
4) There are three different systems in the game, one for the air phase, one for the ground phase, and one for air transport missions. Gary things the air phase and ground phase share most, if not all, of the same flak code, but air transports are a different animal and it's possible the rules for that phase are different.
5) The above answers the 85mm question, as it has such a high ceiling, that it's probably not firing at lower flying aircraft. I'm not sure if the 85mms are being completely removed at the lower altitudes, or if there are die rolls that are just greatly reducing their chance of being included based on the altitude (you guys can try it out). In either case, the flak values shown are very broad stroke numbers that may not accurately reflect any particular battle because there's a difference between flying in at 15k feet versus 1k feet (even though both are in the "low" band for flak value).

Not sure if I've answered the questions in this thread, but I learned something. Hope the info above helps (it's probably at least 80% accurate).

[Wiedrock]

2) Any weapon using flak has to check against it's ceiling. In addition to not firing above your ceiling

So if I understand it correct, small arms that have a Ceiling of under 1000ft will never shoot any planes - since the lowest altitude planes operate at is 1000. Therefore one can scrap the Anti-Air/Ceiling numbers from all those SMGs/Rifles - Devices - right? This would solve essentially 99.9% of the "missleading Flak Value of Hexes".
I never managed to damage any plane after removing the LMGs from all the Squads.
So to me it all makes sense - if I understand it correctly - and it is rather a "Scenario Data" isusue rather than a technical/programmer issue.

1) Devices that are not AA guns or flak (device types 4 and 23) have a greatly reduced chance of being included in the flak calculation against any given air attack. The ground elements that had a device included in the AA defensive firepower, are listed in the combat report. Very few rifle squads get included, but Stugs with AAMGs are ok to be included. In looking at this, Pavel agreed that the display is overstating the value of these non-AA weapons. Currently, the system divides their value by 4, but we're thinking it probably should be something like /100 or worse. If someone attaches a save (or emails it to 2by3@2by3games.com) so I can run the air phase and/or a ground combat, Pavel can run though an attack and will adjust down the value being displayed for these non-AA weapons.

I can't follow what this Save is supposed to provide/what it should contain. If my previous statement/interpretation is correct, then the /4 (to me) is about alright - since those AAMGs/LMGs are only so many inside one Hex possible (and they actually damage planes) maybe a little more of a reduction on them would be okay tho - looking at theiractual effects (essentially the normal LMGs which only have pretty low chance to shoot AA at all), while there can be tens of thousands of Rifles and SMGs (which are the ones bloating the numbers - without providing any damagaging chance (from what I know/can see in the combat logs)).
So to me - removing Anti-Air and Ceiling from those low-ceiling small arms would fix essentially the most part of this "issue" (if they are not supposed to add some ominous DISruption one can not see anywhere - which I am almost certain they don't), further changing the /4 for the normal Squad LMGs do something bigger may help further (is that what you want the Save to be? Like a test comparing Squad LMGs to AAMGs and to actual Flak performance - at 100% Ammo and all with same EXP - shooting at TacB (diving to 1000ft))?.


Connected to all of this is the DISruption subject as shortly mentioned before - if it's only the Collumn we see or if there is more ominous DISruption - or if it does have any effect on Missions at all. But I'll leave all the "DISruption subject" to the other Thread I suppose, take your time on that - it's Grinchmas soon.

[Joel Billings]

Thanks for the additional info and request for clarification. You may be right that under 1000 foot weapons are not actually contributing, or there may be something else going on. I'll find out more specifics on that, and exactly what kind of save we need, and let you know.

[Joel Billings]

I think the key to understanding a lot of this is in the manual 19.3.2:

In air to ground combat (19.4) it is assumed that fighter
and tactical bombers with a mission altitude over 5,000’
will actually conduct their attacks at 1,000’. This will lead
to additional anti-aircraft fire at the lower altitude as non
specialist weapon systems can also be used in an anti
aircraft role.

Pavel thinks that these aircraft that "go low" are not actually bombing at 1000 feet, but at even lower altitude, which allows the below 1000 ceiling weapons to fire (ceiling 0 weapons never fire flak), just not very often. In order for Pavel to trace it through, what we could use are a save where we have a unit with just a lot of rifles to be attacked (say 1000), either by a ground attack mission set up with dive bombers and fighters set to bomb at over 5000 feet, or with a ground support mission that has available dive bombers and fighters set up with the air doctrine for ground support set to over 5000 feet. For getting an idea of what kind of displayed flak value units generate, having a hex with 1000 rifles, versus one with 1000 LMGs, versus one with 1000 AA MGs, would be useful. We don't want to eliminate the chance of the smaller weapons to fire, but we do want to greatly lower their value in the displayed flak value. I would like to find out exactly what aircraft are going low, and what that means, so your saves will help Pavel get me that info. Also, if you send the save/scenario, or tell me what scenario to look at to see the inflated flak values that you posted the screenshot from in your first post that would be very helpful. Clearly those Soviet hexes near Lomza are being inflated by the non-aa items, and this is what Pavel is looking for to use to adjust the values way down. Of course there's still the issue of flak under 1000 feet is different than flak at 15k feet, so the displayed value is only a general guide, and it can be misleading depending on the weapons involved and the exact altitude of the bombing. BTW, my memory of the flak system is that for those bombers dropping down to bomb low, they take flak on the way in at their flying altitude, and then they take some flak at the low altitude, but I don't remember if this is extra flak or if there's some reduction in the high altitude flak taken. Now we're into the weeds. The bottom line is we agree we should pull out most (almost all) of the non-aa type flak from the displayed value. When we get your saves, I can hopefully clarify the rules per the going low attacks. Thanks.

[Wiedrock]

Thanks for the info. I am working on creating the Scenarios, may finish that tomorrow.

Also, if you send the save/scenario, or tell me what scenario to look at to see the inflated flak values that you posted the screenshot from in your first post that would be very helpful.

Those are screens from the normal vanilla Vistula to Berlin Scenario Turn 1/Editor.

[Joel Billings]

Perfect, that's what I need. Thanks.

[M60A3TTS]

The Soviet 85mm KS-12 will not engage targets 4k and below. The 37mm K-61 will not engage at targets 22k and higher.

[Joel Billings]

The Soviet 85mm KS-12 will not engage targets 4k and below. The 37mm K-61 will not engage at targets 22k and higher.

It's for reasons like this that the on map displayed flak values can be very misleading versus any particular mission being flown.

[Wiedrock]

Pavel thinks that these aircraft that "go low" are not actually bombing at 1000 feet, but at even lower altitude, which allows the below 1000 ceiling weapons to fire (ceiling 0 weapons never fire flak), just not very often.

This first two Scenarios inside the Zip, show the same battle, but one Test uses the Vanilla SP Flak (cei9100/eff6500), the other Scenario I have changed the Ceiling (900) and Effective Ceiling (800). The other devices are vanilla values, so occasionally any type of MG may damage a plane in those tests rarely.
Simply attack the single Infantry Division North-East of Königsberg with one of the Soviet Divisions nearby.

VtB Flak Testing - Quad Flak.rar

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As you may notice the Flak won't do anything anylonger when ceiling is below 1000ft. Same I suggest is the case for all the below 1k ft small arms.
Unless I am missing something.

In order for Pavel to trace it through, what we could use are a save where we have a unit with just a lot of rifles to be attacked (say 1000), either by a ground attack mission set up with dive bombers and fighters set to bomb at over 5000 feet, or with a ground support mission that has available dive bombers and fighters set up with the air doctrine for ground support set to over 5000 feet. For getting an idea of what kind of displayed flak value units generate, having a hex with 1000 rifles, versus one with 1000 LMGs, versus one with 1000 AA MGs, would be useful. We don't want to eliminate the chance of the smaller weapons to fire, but we do want to greatly lower their value in the displayed flak value.

Okay, so here I have all in one (I hope).

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VtB Flak Testing - 1k stacks.rar

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1. Different "blocks" of armament (see picture).
2. TacB and FB set on GS missions at 9k altitude.
From few test runs:
#1 will give plane kills
#2 will gove occasionally damaged planes (only visible in Combat Log)
#3 doesn't do shit (Kar ceiling below 1000)
#4 doesn't do shit (MP ceiling below 1000)
#5 will give plane kills

I think the key to understanding a lot of this is in the manual 19.3.2:

In air to ground combat (19.4) it is assumed that fighter
and tactical bombers with a mission altitude over 5,000’
will actually conduct their attacks at 1,000’. This will lead
to additional anti-aircraft fire at the lower altitude as non
specialist weapon systems can also be used in an anti
aircraft role.

Further notes (not in the test):
If you change the Air Doctrine to 4k, the planes will still dive to 1k (Tested with real Flak with 1200/1000 Ceilings). So the quote in the manual may be little missleading suggesting that the Dive would only happen when set above 5000ft (is how I read it). But i's fine as it is now, imo. TacB+FB-B simply conduct missions at 1k in the target Hex (and not below/above), no matter what initial Mission Ceiling they have.

[Joel Billings]

Thanks, that's what we need. It does seem to prove that flak is at 1000 feet at those low flying aircraft, and that the weapons with ceilings under 1000 are never firing. We should be able to adjust the flak values being displayed to better reflect what is and isn't firing. I'll try to find out exactly which aircraft take flak at 1000 feet and try to confirm that the units taking the extra low flak are bombing at 1000 feet. The 5000 statement appears to be wrong. Thanks again.