How can you play a game which takes 2+ hrs/turn?

[MarkShot]

The subject is a question posed by a friend. Also, the answer is not specific to GG games, but all games that have core aspects which are longer that Total War battles of 5-15 minutes.

My answer:

As I kid I played hockey both neighborhood pick up and school team. I was in the top 10% of skating skills. There is nothing more amusing watching guys fall over on their own without being hit, because they are playing defense and cannot skate backwards.

The point is ... hockey only becomes an interesting sport of strategy/tactics when players can skate as naturally as they walk.

Games like WITE-2, WITW, WITP-AE, and EDBTR (they are what I own), only become really enjoyable when you understand the different systems and mechanics. It is a very big learning curve, and it is not a game for guys with 1 hour to play between overtime, being attentive to your wife, a father to the kids, helping around the house as your wife works, and taking care of home maintenance. Then, you really should pick a Total War title.

But if you have time to learn the foundation of the game (like hockey and skating), then a fascinating and rewarding experience opens up to you.

I am posting this as the holiday season is the peak time for new players and questions of "Is this game for me?".

PS: I am retired and can come up with 6-12 hours/day to play. My problem is not so much time, but which game to invest it in?

[zakblood]

think of it as any counter game with hexes,

just more of them, it's that simple.

if you can move 30 units in a turn,

you can move 300+.

same as reading and understand and a manual, when you first play a game and don't read it, that's fine until the game does something and you don't know what happens and you have to have a read,

well all high end war games are like this, you can't really play well without reading and understand and knowing the manual inside out, i've never read it fully, then again im not that good a player and don't play online either, but WITW and WITE i have about 5k hours in plus

[Zovs]

Back in 1977 I got my first wargames for Christmas (all from Avalon Hill); Afrika Korps, D-Day, Battle of the Bulge and Waterloo. I am pretty sure the first one I cracked open and played was Afrika Korps, I remember setting it up and reading the rules and by the time I had done that I had to go to bed (was forced to, lol) and this was about 2+ hours in. All I could do all night was to dream of playing the game, got up the next day before anyone else and started playing AK, 2-3 hours later I was forced to eat breakfast, and then back to my planning and war room, another 3 to four hours passed and I was rudely interrupted and forced to eat lunch! Finally back in my war room at age 11 I completed victory as the Allies when I was again rudely told to come eat dinner. All in all it was at least 8 or so hours of gaming only broken by parentently interruptions for food.

That evening I setup the Battle of the Bulge and the cycle continued...

To this very day but now I can last longer that 2-4 hours a stretch...mostly life calls ...



My question is how could you not play a game that takes 2+ hours.

I now see the folly of my reading and it says 2+ hours a turn.

Okay let me talk about the board wargames from SPI, War in the East, or War in Europe or from GDW Fire in the East, those turns can take 2+ hours and its a rewarding and amazing experience.

The same principle applies to PC wargames. I can easily spend countless hours playing WITE2, WITW, WITP-AE (yeah that one is the biggest time sink). Yesterday a new found friend turned me on to Paradox Darkest Hour and I got it for $1.75 and spent 9 hours playing it (reading the wonderful manual too).

So again, how can you not enjoy 2+ hours per turn?

[AlbertN]

I believe the fundamental difference is how TIME is spent.

We do in life many things that can be quite lengthy. Not necessarily just wargaming.
Say, to watch a long movie, or a soccer game, that's a hour and half. Just as example.

The point is that IF across the time invested one is having fun, time flows.
On the other hand IF say a hour of a turn I am spending it doing clicks to a SU and reassign it to the Stavka, and each turn I repeat the same monotonous, tedious business - yes there is a problem.

Exactly like a movie can keep the person glued to the screen, or bore them to the extent they quit watching.

[MarkShot]

Well, I recently spent much of turn #6 GC-41 re-organizing command to get those bright green borders around units in Army Group North and Odessa was by intention to have sucked so my much command there as part of the siege. Army Group South will continue to be a rainbow mess.

I am not saying that this game does not have a lot of micro (yes, WITP-AE is more), but I feel 50% of the micro is due to noobness with fighting massive battles. With more experience, more would happen by reflex and naturally; and I would learn the quick short cuts to get done that which I am probably investing too many clicks due to my failure to see more direct approaches in the UI.

In 2023, for the first time, I built my own high gaming PC. It was something I felt every war gamer should do once in a life time; possible my last chance due to eye sight, shaking hands, and lifting heavy towers/AIOs ...

I feel the same way, about long and detailed GCs. I don't know if I will spend my next five years on WITW/WITE-2 GCs, but it is something I want to do at least once in my life of as war gamer. It is an ideological/hobby pilgrimage if you will.

[MarkShot]

BTW --- games like Rome 2 Total War with overhaul mods like Divide et Impera are not bad. The problem is that CA has done little to improve the battle experience from the original Shogun.

5-10 to battles despite the lack of tactical depth is okay, but hundreds of such battles can be just as tedious due repetition as SU micro and command points and depots ...

As Zovs points out a game has to be exceptional to play for days and not be battling through mud; but a page turner.

I think GG is one of the few designers capable of creating such experiences; page turners. And as a retired software engineer, I can say GG is a very skilled systems modeler/designer. Most game designers rebuild the same architecture over and over again, but maybe with new tech. GG straddles all types of architecture. WITP-AE=WEGO, EDBDTR=Hybrid WEGO/RTS, WITW/WITE-2=Hybrid TBS/WEGO.

* And I should note that WITW/WITE-2 use a software design common in the 1970s, a step wise processing known as "batch" which is genius since it permitted the construction of a very sophisticated game by a small team and exhibits excellent performance characteristics.

[petrosian]

Time is really irrelevant if you are doing something you enjoy.

[MarkShot]

Time is really irrelevant if you are doing something you enjoy.

True. Also, this reflects what is really important to the player; winning or the game play? As long as I am having fun, losing does not bother me. In fact, there is nothing worse than having won at the 100 hour mark and having to play 200 hours to collect your win.