Squadrons attacking against orders

[Gratch1111]

I have had squadrons where the enemy has moved and the squadron getting commanders decisions and the new decision is shit, like attacking a city with heavy AA from low altitude, but that is my fault I guess not checking properly.

But now I had a DB unit with orders to ground attack a city that I know has no AA batteries. Instead it changes target to another city that has heavy AA batteries. Is that supposed to happen? I went back to check last save and there is my order but now after the disaster attack it has commanders decision.

So what gives? is the game screwing with me?

[Moltrey]

Gratch:
Welcome to WITP:AE.
There is a fairly heavy amount of "wind it up and let it go" element to the game. In other words, Grigsby programmed it to have unit commanders take into account restrictions and changing or mitigating conditions once the turn execution is started.
I can't really give you a specific reason the DB wing commander decided to change targets, but it probably had to do with cloud cover over the main target, getting lost, etc.
In short, no, the game isn't screwing with you, it is just programmed to take into account local commanders having the last word on trying to accomplish the main mission or secondary given the situation.

I know that most guys coming to WITP:AE from other games where you have much more fine control are rather shocked at the way this works.
About the best I can offer is this:
1. It will take quite a bit of time to understand how the simulation works and appreciating the myriad of factors involved.
2. Try to place yourself in the shoes of Nimitz or Yamamoto and their staffs and adjust your mindset accordingly.
3. Once you have planned your operations and hit GO, it is out of your hands just like it was for them.
4. Read the forums on how things work and once the last update is released, pour over the rulebook and start absorbing it.
5. This is an immensely complex sim and rewards longer term play and above all patience and persistence to learn.
6. I love this game precisely for the lack of omniscience, but there is an associated cost in a long learning curve to get to the point of being comfortable with the game.

Good luck, don't forget to look at tutorial videos here on the board to help.

[Gratch1111]

So GG is screwing with me;)

I love this game, I can honestly say its the best computer wargame I have played, but that may be because Im playing PBEM. Its like an onion, you think you have it figured out and there it is, another layer.

[Platoonist]

To the everlasting frustration of higher echelons (and armchair historians) planes often attacked "wrong" targets in real life, like battle of Coral Sea when Japanese launched their big carrier-crushing strike versus the lowly oiler Neosho and destroyer Sims. It's not a problem, just the way it should be. There have been those who dislike the randomness and unpredictability of this game and want to micro-manage every event and wish that every order that they make is executed to the letter (although that never happens in a real war). However, it's my belief and contention that if this ever were the case this game will grow tedious and predictable and as a result not very interesting. I just think of all the computer game that I have bought over the years, quickly mastered, formulated and then binned. Has yet to happen with this one after all these years.

[PaxMondo]

To the everlasting frustration of higher echelons (and armchair historians) planes often attacked "wrong" targets in real life, like battle of Coral Sea when Japanese launched their big carrier-crushing strike versus the lowly oiler Neosho and destroyer Sims. It's not a problem, just the way it should be. There have been those who dislike the randomness and unpredictability of this game and want to micro-manage every event and wish that every order that they make is executed to the letter (although that never happens in a real war). However, it's my belief and contention that if this ever were the case this game will grow tedious and predictable and as a result not very interesting. I just think of all the computer game that I have bought over the years, quickly mastered, formulated and then binned. Has yet to happen with this one after all these years.

Great summary. All HAIL GG!!!!

[Chris21wen]

I have had squadrons where the enemy has moved and the squadron getting commanders decisions and the new decision is shit, like attacking a city with heavy AA from low altitude, but that is my fault I guess not checking properly.

But now I had a DB unit with orders to ground attack a city that I know has no AA batteries. Instead it changes target to another city that has heavy AA batteries. Is that supposed to happen? I went back to check last save and there is my order but now after the disaster attack it has commanders decision.

So what gives? is the game screwing with me?

As said it can happen. You can mittigate the problem by setting the range but this only works if the primary target (yours) is closer than the secondary (commanders).

DB are not the best aircraft at level bombing, much too fragile and as experienced you lose a lot.

[Yaab]

Use "Commander Discretion" with discretion.

[Sardaukar]

If you absolutely have to attack land targets with DB, fly them either 16k or above (might not hit much) or 9k and lower (very vulnerable to AAA). In neither of those cases they will dive bomb.

When dive bombing, 10-15k alt, AFAIK DBs take flak twice, at starting altitude and at release altitude. So, not really optimal attacking city.

[PaxMondo]

When dive bombing, 10-15k alt, AFAIK DBs take flak twice, at starting altitude and at release altitude. So, not really optimal attacking city.

Consistent with what I know as well. The issue is with the release altitude being so low, MOST LCU's will be able to fire some form of AA.

When using DB's against bases, it really helps to have your units present with the base under siege and then armor for the DB's to preserve pilots. Under these circumstances, with big bombs, DB's can be VERY effective against high fort bases and while your plane losses will be high, your pilot losses will be far lower.

Note: Sadly, in stock scenarios the IJ only get the Lily DB with armor, and it does NOT have a big bomb. So the IJ is outta luck with this tactic. The allies OTOH, almost ALL USN DB's have armor and all USN DB's carry a BIG bomb. So, JFB's need beware.

[Heclapar]

Did the city you bombed actually have any units in it? I believe that ground bombing an empty hex might swap the targeting to commander discretion.

[Chris21wen]

Did the city you bombed actually have any units in it? I believe that ground bombing an empty hex might swap the targeting to commander discretion.

Doesn't work like that for manual targetting.

Offensive missions with a target can hit other stuff than what you set as the your mission type. I have never seen an air unit switch mission types from say, ground to AF or port and definitely not to naval.

Only naval attacks can have a secondary target set, all other offensive missions do not but they can fail to find there target and, although I have seen them target a different base, it is rare. (Maybe non-existent as it may have been me). Failure to Find Target (7.2.1.7.2) in the manual states what happens with no mention of them selecting a secondary target, just cancellation.

When no target is selected Commander Discretion is used, basically the AI. The same section of the manual covers this automatic targetting resulting in air groups switching missions turn by turn and it is possible that they may start out with one mission type but carry out a different one on any turn. I do not know! What is clear about AI targetting is it's carried out by the indivicual air units so lack of coordination can become a big factor. This is why manual targetting is advised. Range also plays a big part in any AI selection.

One last thing the manual does not state if the Air Commander has any influence on the target selection? Nor for that matter if any Air or Command HQ in range does or if their commanders' do. In real life the air unit would not get to choose it's missions, it would be the HQs. So the term 'Commander Discretion' is a bit of a misnomer and simply means AI.

[Heclapar]

That is how it works, open up scen 1 and try ground bombing ankang. You will see that some other chinese city or LCU will be targeted instead during the replay and that the orders of the unit will swap to commander discretion. Not sure where you got mission type swapping or secondary targets from what I said.

[Yaab]

You get those threads from time to time
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 3#p4268003

There, BBfanboy notices the switch to Commander Disrection
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 5#p4268035

[PaxMondo]

You get those threads from time to time
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 3#p4268003

Jeez, what a memory pop ... miss ol' Geoff ...

but the essence of what yaab is pointing out is true: This has been hashed a number of times in the past. The solid take-away from all of them has been: set your range ... and if the range is long, be sure to check it frequently.