Japanese defensive strategy...

[mogami]

Hi, As the Allies I plan on advancing to Kwajalein from PH (CenPac)
Truk from the South (SoPac)
And PI from NG. (SWPac)
Operations deeper into Japanese territory will be conducted by each.

The Japanese need 4800 aircraft because they are going to lose them in massive numbers and record speed. If the war has resulted in high numbers of Japanese aircraft being shot down and airgroups destroyed then I'd expect the battle to be quite one sided in favor of the USN. If the Japanese player has avoided protracted unfavorable battles then he will do better. It all depends on the god of battles. (I'd rather be lucky then good)

[mdiehl]

I think I answered your other question in my earlier edit. For the sorts of aircraft NUMBERS you are talking about re-basing, I'd say the down time for these a/c and their pilots should be on the order of 1 month.

[sven6345789]

If your planes as the japanes are concentrated on the PI, then shouldn't the allied mass of CV's be able to plow those airfields on the marianas? It should be rather easy to destroy a lot of infrastructure lets say two weeks before launching an attack.Even if the japanese start concentrating their airforce, the airfields should be far to much damaged to be any good.
Otherwise, agree with you on one point. If you can't advance in on theater because of strong japanese resistance, the others advance. Throwing the japanese off balance is the key.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The Players do have a lot of influence on air crew training.
The Japanese player can train airgroups of untrained pilots up to trained status. It only requires around a year. If you can do without an airgroup and have a secure base with supply then training can occur. (Many SRA bases are ideal because they produce their own supply)

Currently my practice in scenario 15 (the complete war 1941-1946) is to on turn 1 set all Japanese on map airgroups to "do not recieve replacements"
Then I go through the units and disband undersize groups to fill out other groups so the finished airgroup has all trained pilots.
Disbanded airgroups will return in around 365 days. (Dec 42)
These groups will have at least one year to train.

As groups enter battle the process will repeat. (combining existing airgroups to keep trained pilots and then rebuilding a new group)

The trained pilot pool is reserved for the CV airgroups. The Army is allowed to draw replacments for certain groups as required (giving them a little staying power)

Interesting... very interesing...

BTW, why would they return 1 year later from disband status (in UV it takes 45 and 60 days for withdraw/disband)?


Leo "Apollo11"

[mogami]

Hi, You are correct. It is 90 days approx for return of disbanded airgroup.
(I guess I was thinking of the 365 days I would need to return the group to combat after training)

[mogami]

Hi, They will not all redeploy at once. After the battle begins replacement groups will fly forward. Rear groups will move forward to fill the slots. (Like a conveyor belt feeding the meat grinder.

The range from Entiwok (the closest base to Saipan area) is 18 hexes. The PBY extended range is 12. Japanese submarines can use the 6 hex difference safely. (exposed only to carrier ASW search and when a USN CV type aircraft attacks a Japanese submarine the jig is up)

I-58 (the 2nd I-58 commisioned in 1944) operated her entire career inside USA ASW search aircraft range. She was never attacked and sank the Indianpolis and even when her radio transmission reporting the sinking was intercepted no attack resulted. (She reported sinking Idaho class BB and USN knew no Idaho class BB was in that area so they ignored it.)

[mdiehl]

Even a slow TF should cover those 6 hexes in a day.

As for I-58. Pure luck both in not being observed and in finding an unescorted target.

Doesn't matter how your conveyor belt works. Every group that arrives, even if it arrives only at a rate of 10 planes per day, is going to have down time. Maybe not 1 month if you cycle them in slowly enough, but a week at least for each group.

[mogami]

Hi, No the groups will arrive with fatigue based on distance traveled. Then they will fly missions with that (but since they are going to be destroyed shortly who cares.)
6 hexes in WITP is 360 miles. I think a slow TF only covers 4 hexes. (2 in each movement phase) (A 30kt TF moves 6 hexes per phase at full speed.)

The main point is, if the Allies have not already destroyed the Japanese war machine the Japanese can put up one hell of a fight where ever they choose to make a supreme all out effort.

looking at history. The Allies did not outnumber the Japanese in aircraft before 1943. (they did kill more with less)

The critical year of the game will be 1943. A good 1943 for Japan means no Saipan invasion before late 1944. The historical landing was in June so every month Japan delays it is a month of extended life gained.

The Japanese do not want to over extned but they still need to look for ways of killing as much as possible in 1942 and 1943 without getting suckered into a battle they lose. In 1944 Japan does not care about loss ratios only about buying time.

[Mr.Frag]

Doesn't matter how your conveyor belt works. Every group that arrives, even if it arrives only at a rate of 10 planes per day, is going to have down time. Maybe not 1 month if you cycle them in slowly enough, but a week at least for each group.

This downtime you are talking about is currently not in the game (UV or WitP).

Aircraft frequently flew from one base and landed somewhere else or even more complicated, took off on a mission, landed at an advanced base to fuel up, then continued on to their patrol zone or target returning through the same method.

If the base has the support and arms/fuel required and the air crews have the fatigue and morale to fly, why should they be grounded for week? (or a month?)

This would be a "major" change to the game as it exists today, please convince me it is required for accuracy purposes.

[mdiehl]

Hi, No the groups will arrive with fatigue based on distance traveled.

You might want to suggest to the Matrix guys that they fix that. Readiness is more than "I'm tired because of a long flight" and residual jet lag. I'd suggest that any base transfer start with an elementary readiness tax just for making the change and then add to the readiness hit based on distance traveled and number of a/c transferred. If its a small number of pilots oeprating from bases with which they are already familiar, that's one thing. But a wholesale movement of 50 pilots and their machines to a base where they've never operated before is a real man's logistical problem.

[redman1]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Thats pretty much the way I see things as well. I don't pretend to believe there exists any "Super" strategy for knocking the USA out. All that Japan can do is try to avoid surrender. The B-29 in range is the key to this. The longer Japan prevents this the longer she lasts.
The Allies on the other hand don't really have to rush about either.
Their war plan has to have these bases secured and built in time for B-29 arrival and deployment.

The B-29 begins production and arrival on map in May 1944. The Allied player should therefor endeavor to capture Saipan/Tinian and Guam before May 1944. The real success or failure of the period Dec 1941 to May 1944 will be measured by this.

Yeah, but is there any particular downside for the Americans not taking Saipan/Tinian and Guam by May 1944. Say they take it by October '44, or even May '45 - aside from the delay itself, it's not like they're going to lose, right? My question really is, is there any reason for the Allies to press to capture those forward B-29 bases by May '44, or is that simply the earliest they can be used by '29's?

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Of course you'd rather fight the main battle in the PI if you can. But you will not be able to do so (if the game is accurately modeled) if you have the aforementioned disposition in the Marianas. It'd be a poor Allied player who does not use intel to its fullest (again, assuming the game models the advantage properly) to attack where you ain't. I expect the intel feature to give the US the identities of most GCU and ACUs at a given base, the superior HQs, ship concentrations, orders of battle, operation plans, and so forth. Aerial recon and USN scout-sub and seal functions to provide accurate supplemental counts of aircraft, their readiness and dispersal, coastal defenses and so forth.

Gee, why don't you just ask for the Japanese player's password as well? [8|]

Mogami, don't wast your time responding to this guy. mdiehl is the posterchild for "Allied Fanboy". If you come up with a stratagy that works for Japan (or even MIGHT work) he will say the game isn't modeled correctly -- like his ideas of grownding pilots for a month while a quartermaster finds billets for them or whatever. [8|]

[mdiehl]

Damien -

You can have a game about WW2 in which Japan faces the strategic (including technical, numerical, and intelligence disparities) realities of that which really was. Or...

You can have whatever it is that you imagine. Seems to me that your game would be best entitled "WW2 The Way Goebbels and Tojo Said It Would Be." I've seen enough of your posts to understand that you want a game in which every bizarre myth of Japanese superiority is realized and in which Japanese production, R&D, intel, and all other aspects of logistical and strategic capacity equal or exceed that of the Allies. Big deal. I suggest that when you buy your copy of the game you use the editor to make every Allied pilot an Elmer Fudd, every footsoldier a Gomer Pyle, and every skipper a Captain Queeg.

like his ideas of grownding pilots for a month while a quartermaster finds billets for them or whatever.

Whatever you say. Sure, staging a mess of Japanese aircraft to Rabaul overnight in the face of an imminent threat was a piece of cake. All that was required was for some Japanese cic to say "Make it so." That's why they did it so often at Rabaull ... err.. nooo, okay at the Marianas invasion... well, I guess not, or err in the PI .. ooops eh Okina.. no wait, or while US BBs were bombarding the homelands in 1945 err. I guess the real Japanese weren't nearly as freaking brilliant as you. Come to think of it, wtf didn't 8th AF instananeously plug new B17s and crews into combat within days -- no -- hours as you insist -- of arriving in the UK? Wonder why it took so long to have air parity in North Africa given that the French North African ports fell within a day of invasion? Hmm. I guess the Allied opfor guys in the ETO and North Africa didn't have half your scintillating brilliance either.

[Mr.Frag]

Mdiehl, all kidding aside (Cause I'm not "Daffy" Duck), can you dig up some historical information for both sides regarding re-basing of air groups and turnaround time.

As this will potentially cause a major change in how the game plays, I'd like to see something to back it up with.

This one actually bothered me far more in UV playing as Japan where turn 1 a million planes would suddenly be at PM raining bombs on my head, closing Lae before ships even left port. This was why so many folks tried the forward defense of PM stuff.

I understand what you are saying, but we have the added complication that we don't have the ability to stage aircraft through forward bases which is really the ultimate solution. (aka - extended 2 day missions)

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
You can have whatever it is that you imagine. ... that you want a game in which every bizarre myth of Japanese superiority is realized and in which Japanese production, R&D, intel, and all other aspects of logistical and strategic capacity equal or exceed that of the Allies.

I have no delusions about Japanese VS US production. I just don't want the Japanese to get shortchanged on whatthey had or had the potential to make. You seem to think that nothing the Japanese ever made, did, thought, or designed was any good at all.

Whatever you say. Sure, staging a mess of Japanese aircraft to Rabaul overnight in the face of an imminent threat was a piece of cake. All that was required was for some Japanese cic to say "Make it so." That's why they did it so often at Rabaull ... err.. nooo, okay at the Marianas invasion... well, I guess not,

I'm glad you brought that one up. Yes, at the Marianas, the plan was for the Japanese CVs to join the battle from long-range after the Land-based air had softened up the invasion force. The Naval planes were to land at the Marianas after making their attack. It was fo this reason that the US planes couldn't even reach the Japanese CVs. Of course, this plan didn't work but the plan was there and it would have worked if the land-based air had indeed "softened up" the invasion force (instead of getting creamed).

[mdiehl]

I'll see what I can dig up, Frag. I can bring you stuff from the USAAF side rather easily. Of necessity I do not have any good Japanese sources because there AREN'T any.. in English anyhow.

This may be one of the rare instances in which anecotes such as that written by Sakai have any value. Find out how often his unit moved, what was entailed in the move, etc and consider that as an elite unit his unit is going to be better at that sort of thing than most Japanese units. It would be really handy to determine how the orders cycle worked. When Tainan group went to Rabaul, for example, what was the delay from the moment someone decided to ASK to have the group assigned to Rabaul, to the time of its arrival there, and then the amount of time before they were sent on a mission?

I had the same misgivings about UV, by the way.

[mdiehl]

Of course, this plan didn't work but the plan was there and it would have worked if the land-based air had indeed "softened up" the invasion force (instead of getting creamed).

So, the plan would have worked brilliantly if only it hadn't failed. Is this where the IJN chiefs of staff play the part of the cartoon character in a vampire costume who gets led away in handcuffs as he mutters "...and I'd have gotten away with it if it weren't for you MEDDLING KIDS!!"?

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
So, the plan would have worked brilliantly if only it hadn't failed.

As I said, the only reason it failed is because the land-based planes (and then most of the Cv planes) got slaughtered. There was no problem with flying planes from CV to attack and then land at at advanced base and then continue attacking from there. If they can do this (which sadly won't be possible in WitP) they can certainly transfer to a base and attack the next day.

If you don't like Mogami's plan, all you have to do is pound the air bases so the planes can't fly. End of problem.

[mdiehl]

Damien -

All the Japanese planes got slaughtered. The IJN threw some 200 aircraft into the fray. They were beaten too. The problem was that that which Japan wanted to do was NOT DOABLE in the face of the opposition.

[Mr.Frag]

Yeah, but is there any particular downside for the Americans not taking Saipan/Tinian and Guam by May 1944. Say they take it by October '44, or even May '45 - aside from the delay itself, it's not like they're going to lose, right? My question really is, is there any reason for the Allies to press to capture those forward B-29 bases by May '44, or is that simply the earliest they can be used by '29's?

Theses bases are not in range of Japan except for the B-29, they really offer little without them. The basic key to the war is the ability to pound Japan into submission. Until the B-29's are available to do the pounding, there is very little point to bleeding off your assets as the USA except to control Japan's ability to prevent you getting control of certain key bases that are needed to administer the pounding. Denial of these very same bases and denial of supply chains is Japan's goal. It is the only real way they can win, by delaying this activity.

Frankly, I would expect Mogami to have subs stacked 2 deep on every hex between the USA and the Marianas by the time it comes time to move in. I expect him to fight the death fight there as loss spells the end of the game. The end of Japan's navy and air force will take place there, as will destruction of an awful lot of USA assets simply due to leakage factors, tired cap, coastal guns, submarines, etc. It will really be the epic battle of the game.

This is where I have always questioned whether fighting the battles in then Solomons is really worth even showing up to. I know Japan can not realistically hurt Oz, I know Japan can not win on points if I do not offer up enough men and equipment to give up the VP. Expansion all the way through the SRA and total control over all the resources and all the stockpiling that can be done doesn't concern me either.

When I move out it will be from the USA to PH into the Marshalls (I'll probably nail Truk just to be annoying) then into the Marianas to end the game. I will do so in extreme force with 100% commitment of all the resources the USA has. I plan on starting this little road show Jan 1, 1944 because it serves no purpose to kick off the trip any sooner.

He will be forced to engage me where I want because I am dictating the operational pace, in a short series of bloody defeats, as he literally has no choice but to offer surrender or show up and die.

This operation just like the Marianas historically happened can not occur without the support of massive numbers of CV's because there simply are no bases in range to support the offensive. This is why the USA crawled their way up through the Solomons. I am willing to risk that I can do it without the Solomons as I am not Mac, I don't have to wade ashore again. [;)]