Sailing in harms way: InHarmsWay (J) vs Andav (A) Scen2

[InHarmsWay]

On to Northern Australia. This front has again ebbed and flowed. Currently the Allied counterattack has been blunted and I am hoping with supplies being harder for him, I can keep him on the run. The latest shock attack went in and was a big win. I pushed two Aus divisons back into Katherine. Here is the combat replay:

Ground combat at 76,127 (near Katherine)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 21654 troops, 291 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 755

Defending force 14906 troops, 132 guns, 183 vehicles, Assault Value = 463

Japanese adjusted assault: 833

Allied adjusted defense: 287

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: leaders(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
1688 casualties reported
Squads: 12 destroyed, 146 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 24 (9 destroyed, 15 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
5274 casualties reported
Squads: 131 destroyed, 135 disabled
Non Combat: 137 destroyed, 106 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 45 (17 destroyed, 28 disabled)
Vehicles lost 65 (20 destroyed, 45 disabled)
Units retreated 4

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
148th Infantry Regiment
47th Infantry Regiment
78th Infantry Regiment
40th Brigade
16th Infantry Regiment
26th Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Mortar Battalion
5th Mortar Battalion

Defending units:
2nd Australian Division
5th Australian Division
2nd Medium Regiment
21/22 Field Regiment
------------------------------------------

Watching the combat replay, one of the divisions is well trashed, with the other likely only moderately impacted. I don't know the allied replacement rates for Australian divisions, but this does bode well for at least a few months. With the supply difficulties here for the allies, I am going to keep pushing! Banzai!

July 04 1942 Darwin.jpg (532.94 KiB) Viewed 994 times

[Q-Ball]

In India, I would keep chasing the 18th Div stack, since they can keep marching to Burma if needed. But they're in rough shape even if you don't, and it might be OK to keep those units as worthless shells where they can't rebuild (though he will not be able to rebuild 18th Div anyway due to lack of Brit Infantry Squads). A Regt might be enough to chase them.

Northern Australia is now a reverse trap; he advanced too soon, and Allies are in serious trouble. You have him on the run, I would aggressively push south and finish the job (or at least push him past Daly Waters). If you have some tanks you can try to cut him off, but if not it will at least be a long, supply-less march to Alice, and you'll probably buy yourself a few months peace. Looks like you have total control of the air, as you should. Nice job.

[PaxMondo]

Quick questions to experts among the readership. From reading the manual, Chinese units will regenerate after 30 days with just 1/3 of their TO & E in Chungking. I take it that this includes guns, engineers, etc... Do any of them come back disabled or are they effectively full strength, new units, just at 1/3 strength. Also, do they come back trained up (the original unit may have increased in exp), or will they be effectively green units, with exp of 20-30? This Chinese resurrection is regardless of whether the base is contested or not, as there is no indication otherwise.

If Chungking falls, is there any other base where this would happen? I have this feeling I have heard/read somewhere that Chengtu has this ability as well? Is this true or is my memory just trending toward paranoia?

Great AAR btw! IIRC, Chinese units come back 1/3 strength, no heavy weapons (just infantry and mortars), non-disrupted, with 35 exp. 243 Infantry Squads for a Corps, and a few mortars, that's pretty much it.

I don't think they appear anywhere but Chungking. Can't recall what the impact is if the base is contested, someone else can answer that one....

Hope that helps

QBall: Great to see you!!!


Chengtu is the backup if CK is not available. Most players take Chengtu first, then CK.

Contesting Chunking will NOT impact the flow of replacement units to CK, they still come through right up until it falls.

But when CK falls, the allied replacement screen will look Like This:

CHI units stuck unable to deploy after CK falls.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 211329.jpg (79.66 KiB) Viewed 909 times

You can do the same thing to the SOV:

SOV units only able to deploy to Soviet Union National Base

Screenshot 2025-02-12 SOV 211633.jpg (93.22 KiB) Viewed 908 times

[InHarmsWay]

Good to know! I will try and take Chengtu first and will try and keep from eliminating Chinese units, at least until significant arty shows up in Chungking.

Not all are peaches and cream for the IJA though. Here is the current status in India, a subcontinent I am coming to dislike! Adm Wa has continued to overweight this area with units, and is pushing on Calcutta. I have counterattacked up north but am worried about my units in Calcutta. He has rolled over two divisions so far, with both much worse for wear. I will be withdrawing them both from Diamond Harbor in the next week or so as I want to keep the high exp of both units (16th and Imperial Guards Div).

July 07 1942 Calcutta.jpg (741.92 KiB) Viewed 884 times

[PaxMondo]

Good to know! I will try and take Chengtu first and will try and keep from eliminating Chinese units, at least until significant arty shows up in Chungking.

As Q-Ball noted above, dead CHI units come back at 1/3 strength in 30 days; meaning they come back fast. Try NOT to destroy ANY CHI units until you have both CK and Chengtu taken. Most players just try to surround them, cut them off from supply and leave them alone until CK falls, then you wipe up all the rest.

Not all are peaches and cream for the IJA though. Here is the current status in India, a subcontinent I am coming to dislike! Adm Wa has continued to overweight this area with units, and is pushing on Calcutta. I have counterattacked up north but am worried about my units in Calcutta. He has rolled over two divisions so far, with both much worse for wear. I will be withdrawing them both from Diamond Harbor in the next week or so as I want to keep the high exp of both units (16th and Imperial Guards Div).

I have to admit, I'm watching with interest here. Taking on India in mid-42 while still fighting in CK ... that is a stretch that I've not tried. Not saying bad idea, just I know it is a stretch. So watching avidly to see if you can pull it off.


As you can see from my earlier screenshots, my typical strategy is to take CHI and then SOV off the board. Then I can turn to either OZ or India. In the game in which I took those screenshots in mid-43 I was actually going for India at that time. India mid-43 is tough, but without CHI or SOV in the game that frees up most of the Kwangtung, Korean, and China armies for other work. The HQ restrictions keep them in Asia as you cannot board them in ships, so that means India for most of those units; the balance setup for defense.

[BBfanboy]

Pax, you have been away for a while and I think patch .1126 came out during that time. I believe that was the one that gave Chinese units a few anti-tank guns because Japanese tanks were just rolling over strong Chinese units with no losses to themselves. Made the game balance a little better and slowed the IJA advance a bit too. Japanese have to devote a bit more HI and supply to VEH factories too.

[PaxMondo]

Pax, you have been away for a while and I think patch .1126 came out during that time. I believe that was the one that gave Chinese units a few anti-tank guns because Japanese tanks were just rolling over strong Chinese units with no losses to themselves. Made the game balance a little better and slowed the IJA advance a bit too. Japanese have to devote a bit more HI and supply to VEH factories too.

BBF:

You're right of course. Worse, I haven't played a stock game in many, many years. However, the Ironman 'variant' that I play has MORE than a few changes to the allied OOB ... AT is just one of them for the CHI units. So, fighting much tougher CHI units than stock (even with the upgrade that I just started using), I am used to.

As to VEH pts, as I posted elsewhere, it really depends upon how you use the IJ ARM and "how" in this case is more of a "which".
IJ tank units start with one of two med tanks: Type 89A or Type97. Neither are good, but the Type89a is simply a waste of VEH points. As the IJ, you really want to prioritize your use of the units with the Type97 med tank (don't confuse with the Type 97 tankette, another piece of trash). Type 97 will eventually upgrade to the Type 1 (mid 42) and the Type 3 (end game).

Sadly, and I don't know why, the Type 95 Lgt Tank never upgrades. Again, it also is a total waste of VEH points. I never build them. When they are lost, it is "good riddance". There are a few indpt light tank groups with the Type 98 that will upgrade to the Type 2, both of which are good tanks for the IJ. What this means is that my tank divisions end up being just Med Tanks with no Lgt Tanks .... but they suffer far fewer losses and cost far fewer VEH pts to maintain, this allows me to use them A LOT more.

So, if you focus your initial builds exclusively on Type 97/Type1 tanks, your VEH points actually go pretty far. 120 - 180 VEH (which will build 10 - 15 Type 97/turn) can work just fine depending upon the circumstance and luck. At least, this is my experience.

[InHarmsWay]

It has been a couple weeks of game time since the last China post. The encirclement of Chungking is continuing. Adm Wa is throwing out zombie units from Chungking in the hopes I kill them. I am not ready to enter Chungking until I first take Neikiang (which was defended by 3 decent units), and push my armor into Chengtu. I have ~400 AV or armor that will hit him shortly. I made a mistake (shocking.... I know - ), a week ago as I was running a single unit from the SW, SE, and E sides to see how far they march.... needless to say I forgot to stand a division down, and it crossed all by itself into Chungking. Recon by fire, but the division is trashed, and rebuilding now. Just another lesson, currently have lost count! .

Bypassed cities include:
Changsha - 7 units
Sian - 13 units
Ankang - 7 units
Lanchow - 7 units
Yenen - 6 units
South China wilderness - 6 units

several units way up north as well.

July 10 1942 China.jpg (439.85 KiB) Viewed 797 times

[InHarmsWay]

Calcutta continues to be a mess, but the good thing is I am winning the air war attrition, and have not seen meaningful air opposition the past few days. Up by darjeeling, it has been a mess. I was able to force the crossing 1 hex SW of Darjeeling, and moved into Rangpur from the NE, but the day I did that, he closed the door and isolated my units. I moved back two beat up tank rgmts, and am retreating there as my initial attack went in at 1 to 2 odds. I need more units to push there. the 1st Gds tank div is on its way from Tezpur, but I have had to keep it there for a few days until I rail in a rmgt to hold the rear. I expect Adm Wa will try and drop paras somewhere as he has been recon'ing by air attack in several places. - speaking of paras, I am dropping a small unit in Darjeeling next turn. I am hoping to catch units railing into that base as part of a counterattack... low odds but it could really be annoying if they are stuck mid base in their rail state...

July 15 1942 Calcutta.jpg (750.17 KiB) Viewed 741 times

What I am trying to avoid here is the loss of some very good IJA units, with high experience. From reading other posts, supplies are difficult to travel across the border from India into Burma so I need to keep a couple bases open. Diamond Harbor and Chittagong seem the best here. Units I pull out, are going to Rangoon for R&R, with the Arty being mostly sent to China for the Chungking siege that will start in a week or so. Speaking of China, Neikiang fell two days ago, and I was able to force the units to retreat to Chungking. I should have them penned into Chungking in a few days. At that point I will assault on the other hexes where Adm Wa has cunningly sent out zombie units to die. One unit attacking, with everyone else pursuing will be the name of the game there.... Will see if that works!

And to warm my opponents devious heart once this game ends in a few years and he is allowed to read it... I truly dislike those Dutch subs.... they bagged another AK outside of Diamond Harbor.

[InHarmsWay]

On to the great Down Under!!! Q-Ball, you called it. The allies did get themselves over exposed in their drive north. I was able to push both Aussie divisions back, and the retreat has commenced! Three Days ago I forced the river crossing, here is the Combat replay:

Ground combat at Katherine (76,128)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 18232 troops, 271 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 619

Defending force 14487 troops, 160 guns, 271 vehicles, Assault Value = 321

Japanese adjusted assault: 443

Allied adjusted defense: 177

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 0

Combat modifiers
Defender: preparation(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
2093 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 186 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 12 (2 destroyed, 10 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1236 casualties reported
Squads: 51 destroyed, 46 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 37 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 28 disabled
Guns lost 38 (2 destroyed, 36 disabled)
Vehicles lost 13 (1 destroyed, 12 disabled)

Assaulting units:
40th Brigade
1st Formosa Inf. Regiment
78th Infantry Regiment
16th Infantry Regiment
3rd Mortar Battalion
26th Field Artillery Regiment
5th Mortar Battalion

Defending units:
2nd Australian Division
5th Australian Division
34th Combat Engineer Regiment
24th Infantry/A Division
2nd Medium Regiment
21/22 Field Regiment


----------------------------------------------------------------------
The next Day, the Ever Victorious IJA (EVIJA) continued to shock attack, hoping he was worn down and low on supplies. Banzai !!! I captured Katherine, and the Rout has begun! Here is the combat replay in all its glory:

Ground combat at Katherine (76,128)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 16859 troops, 269 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 485

Defending force 13555 troops, 158 guns, 270 vehicles, Assault Value = 213

Japanese adjusted assault: 374

Allied adjusted defense: 78

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Katherine !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
1231 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 66 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 14 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
4022 casualties reported
Squads: 180 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 368 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 85 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 81 (78 destroyed, 3 disabled)
Vehicles lost 135 (134 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Units retreated 6

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
1st Formosa Inf. Regiment
40th Brigade
78th Infantry Regiment
16th Infantry Regiment
26th Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Mortar Battalion
5th Mortar Battalion

Defending units:
2nd Australian Division
34th Combat Engineer Regiment
5th Australian Division
24th Infantry/A Division
2nd Medium Regiment
21/22 Field Regiment

Current status now!!

July 15 1942 Darwin.jpg (575.91 KiB) Viewed 739 times

[InHarmsWay]

Finally a screen shot of the current scoring for those gentle readers that are also accountants. I am happy with the 14k in land unit points, given there are still quite a few to bag in China. I have been trying to slow the ops losses but that is hard on the attack. I believe he is getting low on airframes, which is why I am not seeing nearly as much Air to Air combat from him.

July 15 1942 summary score.jpg (543.31 KiB) Viewed 737 times

One thing that was weird on the scoring front... Maybe the larger AE brain can shed some light on this... About 4-5 days after the big CV battles a month ago (and I believe 2-3 days after the Lexington went down), the daily air losses had a sudden spike, all of them on ground losses by the allied CV capable planes (I got a few at PM when I took the base, but only a dozen or so. I didn't take a screen shot of it at the time, but see the "total ground losses below, sorted by amount. It feels like there may be more than one CV's worth of Airplanes there.... does the aircraft losses table have fog of war multiple days past?

July 15 1942 ground losses of planes.jpg (198.14 KiB) Viewed 737 times

I queried Adm Wa about it when I saw it, and before I had returned the turn. He said that it didn't make sense.... and I never heard a peep afterwords.... (maybe that 800kg bomb that landed on the Yorktown in port at Townsville was better than I hoped?? (yes wishful thinking...?) Do the Allies have a chance at completely crappy damage control roll like the IJN? I am sure that is something he will not tell me if I am so lucky!

[Q-Ball]

I think you may have bagged 2 CVs....that is very definitely 2 CVs worth of planes in Ground Losses. Not just the numbers, but 2 fighter types. You must have sunk something besides Lexington. Did you run any recon on Townsville in the days after the battle? If the port emptied quickly that would be another clue, because it seemed like a couple ships weren't immediately ready to move south for safety. IIRC, Enterprise reported "Heavy Damage"; only took 1 bomb in port, but maybe that was the final straw?

(I always found it odd that in WITP, when a plane bombs a ship, they are always 100% able to read the name of the ship painted on the back. Even in port.)

Counter-argument, once those ships made Townsville, he should have unloaded all the air groups, so it would be odd if they were still onboard in port

Good job in Australia, it will be months before he tries an overland attack again. I assume you'll push to Daly Waters and call off the pursuit.....there is diminishing return going any further. And I wouldn't even try to hold Daly Waters in force

[InHarmsWay]

Q-Ball, I am hoping you are right, and I think so as well as he never said another word about the issue once he had the turn and ran it. Hopefully he thinks that I think I only got 1 CV. If so, maybe I can use that??? Something to ponder. I guess we will have to wait for 6 months before the truth is out? Or is the final "coming clean reporting of sunk ships" further out than 6 months?

I never saw any of this CVs leave the Townsville area, and had a surface TF down there "fishing" for a week or so. Also ~6-8 subs but they kept wasting torpedoes on DDs and patrol craft of various small sizes... they are now headed back to Truk.

Over in Calcutta, Adm Wa outright killed a tank rgmt, and I did the same on the same day, not a good day to be a tanker... I am a couple days away from getting the second trashed Division out of Diamond harbor.

[PaxMondo]

... Just another lesson, currently have lost count! .

But all enjoyment aside, you have exactly the correct attitude. This game, and in particular the IJ, is a learning experience. A wise person once said that you learn best from your mistakes. Another wise person said that to try and err is the path to wisdom.

I have been on this path for well over a decade now. I think I am making progress, but ....

Welcome to the JFB club!

[PaxMondo]

... I believe he is getting low on airframes, which is why I am not seeing nearly as much Air to Air combat from him.

Probably true, but from about mid-42 on, the total allied fighter production just slowly ramps up until '45 VE day and then it takes a HUGE jump. What this means is, if you stop attritting his fighter force (he doesn't rise to challenge you), he will gain fighters. Many allied players carefully pick and choose their defense points in '42. At this point, his daily total fighter production (excluding SOV) is something like 8-9/day (this excludes new units arriving with new aircraft). By year end it will be more like 10-12/day. Now, a lot of the fighters are trash, some are P40's and Hurri's, but as the year ends Spits and Corsairs start to show up in addition to the Lightnings. Keep these numbers in mind. If you are not killing them, then he is building inventory ...

[InHarmsWay]

PaxMondo, thank you for the invitation to the JFB club. I recognize that this is a highly exclusive, much sought after, and extremely prestigious club, and humbly accept membership!

I am seeing him continue to fly Wirraways in Australia, also jumped some Hurricane IIc Trop's that just showed up in theatre, bagged 8 in Air to Air yesterday. For the historical record, here is the listing of total plane losses. I have been very hard on my Betty and Nells, something I need to work on. A lot of those losses were earlier when I was not paying much attention to CAP. Something to improve on! Also, the Kate and Val numbers are too high. I had made a mistake several months back with the KB when it was in the Indian Ocean. I was using the KB to squish a land unit, then moved it away but forgot to take the planes off ground attack. They attacked Colombo (which had heavy AA units at low level, and I ended up losing ~30 Vals and a few Kates with precious pilots! Lesson there is to ALWAYS check KB planes each turn! Also to search with float planes, not KB pilots!!! Lost a bunch more from his death star CAP last month.

Current production is 5 A6M3a and 5 Tojo's a turn. This pace has allowed me to gradually build out my Tojo's and Zero airgroups. I am planning on having the KB fitted out with A6M5 (should go into production late Aug '42) as their last zero model (best airspeed, and hoping it will hold up until the Sams arrive.). Land units will continue to fly a mix of A6M3a for longer range Betty/Nell escorts or Georges. I had 8 factories on Sams initially, and recently bumped that up to 12 (wish I had done that day 1). This is a weakness as I really want Sams when we tangle next. I may get lucky here if I did get two CVs and that slows him down.(not likely...)

Research is focused on Georges, Sams, and Franks (12 factories each), and Ki-83s (13 factories).

July 18 1942 plane losses.jpg (328.84 KiB) Viewed 650 times

Thank you gentle readers for your continued interest! This will be my last post for a couple weeks, as I am off on vacation again. The war will resume early March!

[PaxMondo]

PaxMondo, thank you for the invitation to the JFB club. I recognize that this is a highly exclusive, much sought after, and extremely prestigious club, and humbly accept membership!

Not sure about the prestigious part, maybe Qball or CB can comment about that. Still, welcome!!!

[PaxMondo]

Research is focused on Georges, Sams, and Franks (12 factories each), and Ki-83s (13 factories).

N1K1 George 9/43 Ha-45 9/43
A7M2 Sam 9/45 Ha-43 9/45
Ki-84a Frank 4/44 Ha-45 9/43
Ki-83 10/45 Ha-43 9/45

So, expect George about 6/43. A bit early, but not much. You could get lucky with the factories. Expect Frank about 1/44, Sam 3/45, Ki-83 3/45.

Be sure you are researching both engines. If you get the engine early, focus on building an inventory of at least 500 engines. The RnD bonus that the engines give is HUGE.

Don't be disappointed with the arrival dates, because there is one more piece of good news here. When the N1K1 does arrive, you will be able to convert a group every 3 - 4 days. Yep, 7 - 10 groups in the first month. There is nothing like completing the RnD on a new, better plane and then fielding it at large.

[InHarmsWay]

Back from traveling, On with the War!

Thanks for the previous comments here on the air research/production piece. I do enjoy the production sub game quite a bit, as it take planning and I am still learning here. Here is the current status of my research in the Big 4 (George, Frank, Ki-83 and Sam). I have been researching engines quite at bit as the 500 engine bonus is crucial! Not sure how realistic it is, but would like to get George by Feb '43 and Franks by July '43. Sam's by mid 44 and Ki-83 shortly thereafter... Is this feasible?

Regarding engines, I will start producing the Ha-45s late August (currently sits at 81% done in Oct. Once they are producing, I will ramp up the factories some as the Ha-45 engines seem to be good for the rest of the war. Ha-43s will likely go into production in a year or so as well. I may add another factory here in a bit, not sure...

July 19 1942 air research.jpg (496.25 KiB) Viewed 521 times

[PaxMondo]

Back from traveling, On with the War!

Welcome BACK!

Thanks for the previous comments here on the air research/production piece. I do enjoy the production sub game quite a bit, as it take planning and I am still learning here. Here is the current status of my research in the Big 4 (George, Frank, Ki-83 and Sam). I have been researching engines quite at bit as the 500 engine bonus is crucial! Not sure how realistic it is, but would like to get George by Feb '43 and Franks by July '43. Sam's by mid 44 and Ki-83 shortly thereafter... Is this feasible?

George by 2/43: 12 x 30 RnD. Possible, but only if you started this on 12/8/41. Based upon your current status, it doesn't look like you did and my guess is that you will see it about 4/43, maybe a week or two earlier. You can see the range of repaired factories ... this is the "secret" behind committing a large number of RnD factories.

Roughly speaking 1 in 6 will be fast and 1 in 6 slow. Don't care about the slow, but the fast is a big deal. When the first factory fully repairs, it means every 100 days it will advance 1 month, every 50 days with the engine bonus. When it advances, ALL of the other factories now start repairing faster as it is closer in. It is a snowball effect.

Frank by 7/43: 11 x 30 RnD. Not probable. My guess: mid month 9/43. You would need 15 from 12/8/41 to hit that target with reasonable probability.

Sam by 6/44: 12 x 30 RnD. Unlikely. My guess: 11/44. So far you have not been too lucky. To shave 12 months off you would need 15 and better to have 18 factories. With 18 I have gotten it as early as 3/44.

Hi-83 by 7/44: 12 x 30 RnD. Unlikly. My guess: early '45. You've been a bit luckier on this model. I've not really tried for this one, but I have gone for both the Ki94 and J1W1 and with 18 factories gotten them in late '44. Remember that the Ki-83 will use 2 engines for the RnD bonus ...
[/quote]

Regarding engines, I will start producing the Ha-45s late August (currently sits at 81% done in Oct. Once they are producing, I will ramp up the factories some as the Ha-45 engines seem to be good for the rest of the war. Ha-43s will likely go into production in a year or so as well. I may add another factory here in a bit, not sure...

Both the Ha-45 and Ha-43 will be heavily used based upon your choices, so yeah. Add factories as you can, but mostly once they finish RnD keep them on a daily growth until you get to your needs. That will be somewhere about 6 - 12/day on each one assuming your economy can handle it. Ha-45 is the George/Frank/Peggy. Ha-43 is the A7M/George(last)/Ki-83. So lot's of both engines.