The Battle of the Iceland Basin, 1970 - new beta for testing

[Mgellis]

Here is my newest beta. Please let me know what you think.

It is 1970. The Cold War has gone hot. You are in command of a task force with about ten ships and four submarines and air assets at Lossiemouth and Greenland. You have to kill about a dozen Soviet submarines, including a Golf getting ready to fire its nuclear missiles.

As always, I am looking for feedback on all aspects of the scenario. Gameplay, units selected, how the orders are written, if the events are working properly, if the scoring makes sense, etc.

I tried an experiment with this one...playing around with an idea I find very interesting. This is set early in a conflict and gives the player a bunch of assets, but they are not fully organized. In this case I did some research about what ships, etc. would probably be in the area of the scenario that could all be attached to a single task force (I usually do this kind of research with most scenarios, but this time I deliberately scattered the forces the player has available), popped them down in spots where it seemed plausible they might be, and am letting the chips fall as they may. That is part of what the player has to do, not only complete the mission, but determine a lot of how he will complete the mission, decide if he wants to break up existing groups, form new ones, etc.

So I'm interested in whether I've made NATO too strong, too weak, if it makes sense to start the ships and subs where I put them, in the groups I created (one of them is part of STANAVFORLANT for 1970).

Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

[Version 2 uploaded 6:40 PM CST Feb. 25 2025]

[HalfLifeExpert]

Great! Downloading now!

One quick question: Is this supposed to be the same war as your previous scenario "Charlie Deuce takes the Lead"?

I ask because that scenario was on Feb. 4th 1970, whereas this one is on May 2nd, and they both claim to be the second day of the war.

Overall the scenario looks interesting. I will report back, though I would feel a bit more comfortable if the Wasp had 6 or 8 Skyhawks for air defense and investigating AGIs

[HalfLifeExpert]

So I've played some of this, and I have a few notes:

-The briefing should have an in-scenario reason why SOSUS is offline, perhaps at the outset of the war a surprise cruise missile or Spetsnaz attack hit the main processing centers in Iceland.

-Are the RPs pointing out certain undersea features intended for special messages giving some indication of where Soviet sub activity is (i.e. SOSUS doing it's work off screen)?

-Given the distances involved, I think that the Soviet missile-carrying bombers should be removed, as it's enough of a challenge just getting fighters in position to blast the Soviet Bears and scout Badgers. I think a battle to keep the Soviets partially blind is a better limited challenge than having to worry about those bombers.

-This was brought up in Tech support (https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0&t=408913), but HMS Jaguar stumbled on a Soviet SSN within range of its ASW Mortar, but couldn't engage due to an apparent lack of weapon directors, rendering this ship completely useless. I think there is an issue where the Sonar is not speaking to the ASW Mortar personnel/equipment.

-Given the time allocated for the scenario, I think an early task for the player could be to air-transport some ASW munitions to Iceland to make more effective use of that airport for this operation, allowing the handful of Orions and Shackeltons to operate there. Perhaps it could also be setting up forward operations in Iceland as well. Since this is a long-form ASW scenario, I don't think it will necessarily overwhelm the player.

-As mentioned in my previous post, I think USS Wasp should have 6-8 Skyhawks available, for operations against those Soviet scout aircraft as well as to investigate and sink any of those Soviet incognito AGIs. They really wouldn't need anything other than Sidewinders, Mk82s, and maybe rocket pods. I don't know if it is historical for the Wasp to have such aircraft at this point, but I think its plausible enough to make for better gameplay.

[Randomizer]

Wasp's last cruise was in 1970 and her air group CVSG-84 did not include any Skyhawks. It is my understanding that not all of the CVS could employ the A-4. Other than that, I agree that the lack of SOSUS could well be explained in the scenario description or briefing. I would also recommend placing locked and labeled reference points on the corners of the AO. That said it seems odd that the south entrance of the Denmark Strait is not being covered and moving it to the west would address this.

-C

[Mgellis]

Yes, I'm changing the start date of the war to May 1. (It occurred to me that Russia is unlikely to start a war in the middle of winter unless they really, really have to.)

I'm probably going to avoid a detailed backstory for this campaign...I'm just assuming the Soviets have attacked and they will follow a generic war plan (seize West Germany, cripple NATO, cripple Pacific allies like Japan...secondary goals might include seizing the Aleutians, invading Turkey to gain control of the Black Sea, invading Iran, etc.)

Great! Downloading now!

One quick question: Is this supposed to be the same war as your previous scenario "Charlie Deuce takes the Lead"?

I ask because that scenario was on Feb. 4th 1970, whereas this one is on May 2nd, and they both claim to be the second day of the war.

Overall the scenario looks interesting. I will report back, though I would feel a bit more comfortable if the Wasp had 6 or 8 Skyhawks for air defense and investigating AGIs

[Mgellis]

I thought I put S-2 Trackers on the Wasp. I'll go check.

As for SOSUS...how do I add that? Or is it modeled in Command? I always thought it was like Harpoon where the sensors were just there by default. Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Wasp's last cruise was in 1970 and her air group CVSG-84 did not include any Skyhawks. It is my understanding that not all of the CVS could employ the A-4. Other than that, I agree that the lack of SOSUS could well be explained in the scenario description or briefing. I would also recommend placing locked and labeled reference points on the corners of the AO. That said it seems odd that the south entrance of the Denmark Strait is not being covered and moving it to the west would address this.

-C

[Randomizer]

I would create a non-player side, friendly to the Player and add the SOSUS arrays, Facility #1564. In order not to clutter the map, group the arrays with a land HQ so that they do not appear on the map in the group view. The Wiki article has a map with the locations of the first generation arrays.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOSUS

Examples of SOSUS as a player aid may be found in the Northern Inferno scenario Opening Moves or my Sanitizing NORLANT plus others.

The air group for USS Wasp, CVS-18, CVSG 84 composition may be found here:

https://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv18-70/index.html

-C

[Mgellis]

Got it. Thanks.

I would create a non-player side, friendly to the Player and add the SOSUS arrays, Facility #1564. In order not to clutter the map, group the arrays with a land HQ so that they do not appear on the map in the group view. The Wiki article has a map with the locations of the first generation arrays.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOSUS

Examples of SOSUS as a player aid may be found in the Northern Inferno scenario Opening Moves or my Sanitizing NORLANT plus others.

The air group for USS Wasp, CVS-18, CVSG 84 composition may be found here:

https://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv18-70/index.html

-C

[HalfLifeExpert]

I supposed the S-2 Trackers armed with Rockets and iron bombs can deal with the incognito AGIs, but I still thought a handful of Skyhawks would be welcome.

If the Wasp didn't have them historically, then that's fine. I still stand by my suggestion to remove the Soviet Missile bombers though.

I'm honestly a bit surprised Mark didn't know that SOSUS can be put into a scenario! I remember it being there as far back as Northern Inferno!

[Randomizer]

I think that the problem with Wasp operating the Douglas A-4 was related to her hydraulic catapults. My understanding is that the next-to-last generation of these were never replaced but were also unable to reliably accelerate the launching Skyhawks to safe flying speed. It seems that the CVA Essex Class were all refitted with steam catapults and at least some of the CVS had the last generation of hydraulic cats, which could safely launch a lightly loaded Skyhawk armed with AIM-9s for CAP.

The video below discusses the cat problem as it applied to USS Kearsarge CVS-33 and the older Wasp probably had similar issues as she aged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1Wgv21YhVU

-C

[Mgellis]

-This was brought up in Tech support (https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0&t=408913), but HMS Jaguar stumbled on a Soviet SSN within range of its ASW Mortar, but couldn't engage due to an apparent lack of weapon directors, rendering this ship completely useless. I think there is an issue where the Sonar is not speaking to the ASW Mortar personnel/equipment.

-Given the time allocated for the scenario, I think an early task for the player could be to air-transport some ASW munitions to Iceland to make more effective use of that airport for this operation, allowing the handful of Orions and Shackeltons to operate there. Perhaps it could also be setting up forward operations in Iceland as well. Since this is a long-form ASW scenario, I don't think it will necessarily overwhelm the player.

-As mentioned in my previous post, I think USS Wasp should have 6-8 Skyhawks available, for operations against those Soviet scout aircraft as well as to investigate and sink any of those Soviet incognito AGIs. They really wouldn't need anything other than Sidewinders, Mk82s, and maybe rocket pods. I don't know if it is historical for the Wasp to have such aircraft at this point, but I think its plausible enough to make for better gameplay.

I'll look for a replacement for the Jaguar. Fortunately, I have this (I'm assuming only some of these ships would be available for a mission south of Iceland, but there should be something)...

https://www.naval-history.net/xGW-RNOrg ... 7-2013.htm

[Edit...Jaguar has been replaced with Juno, probably a better ship for this scenario]

Unfortunately, it looks like you can't move munitions in the CWDB. You can move cargo, so you can, say, drop paratroopers, but you can't move ammunition from one air base to another. At least not as far as I can tell.

I'll stick with the historical loadout for the Wasp. The trawlers are NOT a serious threat and can be dispatched with naval gunfire. I've also added a few Bullpups so the P-3s can be used to take them out, if necessary. Also, the Trackers can use ZUNI rockets and there are some on the carrier.

[Mgellis]

I'm honestly a bit surprised Mark didn't know that SOSUS can be put into a scenario! I remember it being there as far back as Northern Inferno!

Guilty as charged...I had forgotten you had to add it. I was thinking of Harpoon, where it was just built into the game and would occasionally go off and let you know a submarine had been spotted.

[Mgellis]

Just uploaded version 2. Various changes include...

* HMS Jaguar is replaced with HMS Juno (F 52, a brand new Leander-class w. Wasp helicopter)

* Bisons removed from Russian air base; nuclear torpedoes and missiles loaded on some of the Soviet submarines

* A few Bullpups are now available at the Greenland base if you want to load them onto some of the Orions

* A few other minor changes

As always, please let me know what you think. Suggestions, comments, corrections, etc. are all welcome. Thanks in advance!

[HalfLifeExpert]

I've downloaded the new version and took a quick look. The addition of SOSUS arrays is welcome, and thanks for scrapping the Missile-armed Bisons.

I'll have a look within a day or two, I'm diving into the Fail-Safe campaign now.

[Mgellis]

An additional question about this scenario...

As I mentioned, this scenario, like a number of mine, is kind of an experiment. I basically gave the players a problem to solve, resources that I thought were reasonable for the time and the location, and then let things play out as they will. I did not design the scenario specifically to be easy or hard, to prove some idea, etc. As a result, I have no idea how hard it actually is. I listed it as difficulty 3 (medium), but that was simply a placeholder.

How would rate this scenario for difficulty?

Thanks.

[HalfLifeExpert]

I've been playing version 2. I managed to find and kill that Golf SSB, but I ran into an issue that I think is an issue with the latest Update (build 1567), where ASW Torpedoes can't be fired against submarines due to a "Code Error" according to the manual attack window. I will report it in tech support.

I could only engage with Bearing Only launches.

[Mgellis]

I ran into the same problem. Thanks for reporting it.

I've been playing version 2. I managed to find and kill that Golf SSB, but I ran into an issue that I think is an issue with the latest Update (build 1567), where ASW Torpedoes can't be fired against submarines due to a "Code Error" according to the manual attack window. I will report it in tech support.

I could only engage with Bearing Only launches.

[HalfLifeExpert]

The CMO Patch released today (Build 1567.6) claims to fix the "Code Error" issue with ASW torpedoes.

I've not gotten home to try it out yet, but I will give this scenario another go with the latest patch


UPDATE:

I've been playing the scenario again, overall I think it's good, but there's a couple of ASW issues that are unresolved in the latest build that I will report, including the effectively dead ASW Mortars

[Mgellis]

A bit of related news...

I've been trying to gather information for the database viewer issue that has showed up recently (it appears in this scenario, too) by checking some old scenarios and seeing if it showed up in any of them.

Among other issues...it shows up in some scenarios with CWDB v508 and it DOESN'T show up in other scenarios with the same database. Weird!

I posted an additional Tech Issues thread with some of the scenarios where it shows up (and one where it doesn't), so I hope that will help fix it soon.

[HalfLifeExpert]

It's been a while, but I've been playing this scenario again now that the latest betas have addressed some of the outstanding issues.

I think I've found a way to address my concerns over no munitions being available in Iceland to re-arm the F-4s and Lightnings. I had previously suggested including one transport for a one-off supply mission of missiles to the airbase, but I've thought of another solution, and all it would take is a tweak to the briefing:

Both fighter types available to the player, the F-4E Phantom and the English Electric Lightning, have internally mounted cannon. This means that they CAN engage with guns when equipped with the "Ferry" loadout.

Therefore, while it may be advisable to shuttle fighters between Iceland and Greenland/Scotland as needed to re-arm with missiles, it could be written into the scenario that there was a supply of gun ammunition and drop tanks that was ether flown in the day before, or was already present as a contingency supply.

This would allow for the "unlimited" amounts of the "ferry" loadout available to use at the Iceland airbase.