Shadow Of The Tsars - Incredible White Strength

[formerlybalbo]

So, I am very new to Strategic Command 3, and I decided to pick it up and after watching OldCrowBalthazor's excellent MP game with StrategyWolfGaming (I have since also watched his older series with Duedman), and I have since then played the Whites three times and the Bolsheviks once, all games being against the AI on intermediate difficulty. This is an absolutely excellent scenario!

However, what I am not new to is the Russian Civil War. I am planning on an alternate-history series of my own centred on the RCW, and in conjunction with that, I have been trawling through Google translated Russian Wikipedia articles for several years, I have read one of General Wrangel's memoirs "Always With Honour", and I also have one of General Denikin's memoirs "Russian Turmoil" ready for once I'm finished College, as well as Hannula's new trilogy, and I am also hoping to eventually pick up General Drozdovsky's memoirs as well.

Why I say all of this is for one reason; the Whites are absolutely insanely powerful in this scenario (in all honestly, the Bolsheviks are also too strong, but the problem is more pronounced with the Whites), particularly some factions. Now, all of the recommendations that I am going to make are purely in the interest of realism (and perhaps also gameplay balance), so if having fun is the primary motivator (which is completely understandable, realism can often ruin things), then whomever may see this can safely ignore the rest of this post. I also completely understand that peoples time is extremely limited and precious, so if these recommendations are also rejected on those grounds, no hard feelings!

I will start with Yudenich and the North-Westerners, they are incredibly strong in comparison to how they were in OTL (I have attached an image of their actual strength just before Operation White Sword in OTL). I believe this may arise from Yudenich having two formations that were designated as Corps (von der Pahlen's and Arsenyev's 1st and 2nd Rifle Corps), however, these Corps were never actually larger than brigade strength in OTL at roughly 6,000 men each. In total, Yudenich never even had a full strength infantry division in OTL. Now, of course, in alternate-history, if Yudenich had been able to capture Pskov, Petrograd, Novgorod, Ostrov and so on, of course he would have been able to raise more men, but the amount that he currently has at the beginning as well as in the production queue automatically is far too large, and his build limits are also most likely too high, though perhaps they could increase as he captures certain objectives?

Bermondt-Avalov's Western Russian Volunteer Army might be an interesting way to remedy this situation without crippling the North-Westerners. They are already partially represented in-game already via the Freikorps, however from what I can remember there is only two brigades worth of Freikorps (~12,000 men), when in OTL there were 40,000 Germans (two divisions worth) and fifteen thousand Russians (almost equivalent to Yudenich) in the WRVA. There are some interesting options for some decisions here. The Germans were only there for bread and land in the Baltic, and they went home with von der Goltz as soon as it became clear that they weren't going to get it. Perhaps there could be a decision for the NW Whites to declare war on the Baltics in exchange for two Freikorps infantry divisions and a Russian infantry division (an extremely dangerous gambit, though perhaps the Poles could also get a decision to back-stab the Lithuanians in order to assist?), while rejecting the decision would just result in only gaining the Russian infantry division as the Germans would go home?

I will now talk about the Ural Whites. In all honesty, they are fine for the most part, Gaida and Khanzhin are fairly well represented, but Dutov, oh God Dutov, just where in the name of God is he getting his three infantry corps and a cavalry division from? He never came close to that kind of number of men in OTL, and the Orenburg Cossacks were primarily a cavalry force, their lack of infantry was the main reason that they couldn't actually take Orenburg in OTL. Three cavalry brigades (or divisions, at absolute most), and a infantry brigade (or division, again, at absolute most) would definitely be more accurate. However, I would then counter-balance this by having Dutov immediately and automatically stand up another three cavalry divisions and an infantry division after liberating Orenburg (similar to what happens with the Astrakhan Cossacks) as the Orenburgians were the third largest Cossack Host (which is actually well represented by them having large build limits after being liberated). I don't have as concrete of a source on Dutov's IRL strength as I do with Yudenich, but I would not assume that he had anything in excess of 30,000 men at the most, and I would again assume that the issue is that extremely under-strength formations that were designated as corps on OTL are being represented as full-strength in-game.

With regards to the Poles, they have absolutely incredible operational freedom, the idea of them being able to advance into the Donbass with impunity is hilarious. I would recommend that they should be restricted from advancing beyond Galicia until the North-Westerners, Northern Whites and Ural Whites have been defeated, and perhaps also until the Southern Whites are below a certain FS value, crossing it should yield the current penalties that crossing Lake Naroch and the Berezina currently does. Once those prerequisites have been met, even then they should only be able to advance to the Dnieper, crossing it should yield the current penalties that crossing Lake Naroch and the Berezina currently does. There could be an interesting decision here though, where in exchange for Petliura subordinating himself to Poland (and swapping from a minor of the Southern Whites to a minor of the Poles, if that is possible) and a considerable drop (perhaps 2,500?) in White FS, the Poles can then operate west of the Dnieper before those prerequisites are met without penalties, to represent the IRL agreement between Petliura and Pilsudski, as well as the Kiev Expedition in 1920 (perhaps there should be a date requirement as well?). Rejecting this decision would of course keep the Poles in Galicia until the prerequisites are met, and perhaps result in a small loss of Polish FS.

For a few events for the Southern Whites, I would recommend representing Vasilchenko's Yekaterinoslav March right at the start of the game (it was only the size of a regiment, so perhaps a very small FS boost and MPP gain for the Southern Whites, effectively just for flavour?). The agreement between the Galician Ukrainians and General Denikin's forces in November of 1919 (they were infuriated by Petliura's acceptance of the loss of Galicia and transferred themselves to the control of the Armed Forces of Southern Russia) is also of interest, perhaps a small FS boost as well as an infantry division? Finally, there could be a decision to refuse to recognise Admiral Kolchak of the Ural Whites as the Supreme Ruler of Russia, resulting in a small FS drop for the North-Western, Northern and Ural Whites, and a small FS boost for the Southern Whites. This could be a kind of a gambit where the Whites are in retreat all across the front, but the Southern Whites are advancing and the player wants to hinge all their bets on Denikin. There could also be a similar enough decision here for the Ural Whites, where if their FS has dropped to a certain value, they have below a certain number of units, or they have lost certain objectives, or a combination of those factors, they could choose to transfer the title of Supreme Ruler to Denikin, in exchange for a substantial FS loss (2,500?) for the Ural Whites and a sizable FS gain (1,000?) for the Southern Whites, again being a gambit on betting it all on Denikin?

Well, I think that's about all I have to say today, hopefully someone sees this and finds it to be an interesting read, even if nothing comes of it. Thanks again so much for creating such an interesting scenario!

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Thanks for taking the time to write all this up

The realism vs accuracy issue is always a tricky one - for competitive MP games in particular to be fun, both sides need to have a 50/50 chance of winning when opponents are equal skill, and it's fair to say that historically the Whites did not have close to a 50/50 chance of winning this conflict. My first exposure to this conflict was playing the SC2 version of this campaign when I was about 14, and I hadn't read up much on it since until deciding to remaster that campaign for this release - the main source I used was Antony Beevor's Russia: Civil War and Revolution 1917-1921, and the whole time I was reading it I kept wondering where the point in the story would be where the Whites looked like they would win, and it just never came . And I can't just make victory conditions to suit a weaker White side, because a "White Victory" that doesn't involve the Whites overrunning the majority of the country just doesn't make any sense - it's not like the ACW where the Confederates can hold nine of the eleven rebel states and win by simply outlasting the Union's will to fight.

Exaggerating the strength of certain units is a handy way around this issue, particularly when it is the historically weaker side doing so, as is the case here - that will explain most of the examples you've offered here. In this campaign's case I also found while testing that the units that are in the game are about what's sufficient to allow historically-attained objectives to be achieved in the game at something close to the historical timeframe - giving Yudenich three corps does allow him to capture Pskov in most games (assuming the Bolshevik player is not making an outsized effort to prevent that specific outcome), whereas when I tested him with three divisions, that wouldn't necessarily the case. And if the units on the map are precisely the strength they were historically, but players can't achieve what was actually done historically (thanks to the benefit of hindsight among other factors), then is the game really more historically accurate than the alternative?

(I will also add that this sort of thing has been in SC for a very long time - an obvious example being the Kriegsmarine in the WW2 releases having many more ships than their historical strength as a proportion of the Royal Navy's strength would allow).

I did consider adding the WRVA as a separate faction, but found it just tended to overcomplicate things in that part of the map, they're assumed to just be part of the NW White and/or Baltic units.

A lot of the Polish mechanic suggestions you've provided unfortunately aren't possible with the engine, interesting thoughts there though!

And yes, foreign wikipedia pumped through google translate (or the auto-translate button they added to firefox last year ) is a super underrated resource.

- BNC

[formerlybalbo]

Thanks for taking the time to write all this up

The realism vs accuracy issue is always a tricky one - for competitive MP games in particular to be fun, both sides need to have a 50/50 chance of winning when opponents are equal skill, and it's fair to say that historically the Whites did not have close to a 50/50 chance of winning this conflict. My first exposure to this conflict was playing the SC2 version of this campaign when I was about 14, and I hadn't read up much on it since until deciding to remaster that campaign for this release - the main source I used was Antony Beevor's Russia: Civil War and Revolution 1917-1921, and the whole time I was reading it I kept wondering where the point in the story would be where the Whites looked like they would win, and it just never came . And I can't just make victory conditions to suit a weaker White side, because a "White Victory" that doesn't involve the Whites overrunning the majority of the country just doesn't make any sense - it's not like the ACW where the Confederates can hold nine of the eleven rebel states and win by simply outlasting the Union's will to fight.

Exaggerating the strength of certain units is a handy way around this issue, particularly when it is the historically weaker side doing so, as is the case here - that will explain most of the examples you've offered here. In this campaign's case I also found while testing that the units that are in the game are about what's sufficient to allow historically-attained objectives to be achieved in the game at something close to the historical timeframe - giving Yudenich three corps does allow him to capture Pskov in most games (assuming the Bolshevik player is not making an outsized effort to prevent that specific outcome), whereas when I tested him with three divisions, that wouldn't necessarily the case. And if the units on the map are precisely the strength they were historically, but players can't achieve what was actually done historically (thanks to the benefit of hindsight among other factors), then is the game really more historically accurate than the alternative?

(I will also add that this sort of thing has been in SC for a very long time - an obvious example being the Kriegsmarine in the WW2 releases having many more ships than their historical strength as a proportion of the Royal Navy's strength would allow).

I did consider adding the WRVA as a separate faction, but found it just tended to overcomplicate things in that part of the map, they're assumed to just be part of the NW White and/or Baltic units.

A lot of the Polish mechanic suggestions you've provided unfortunately aren't possible with the engine, interesting thoughts there though!

And yes, foreign wikipedia pumped through google translate (or the auto-translate button they added to firefox last year ) is a super underrated resource.

- BNC

Thanks for replying BNC! On one final note, I would also say that the Bolsheviks are stronger than they were IRL at the start of the game, so a scale-down, however partial, of White forces could work hand-in-hand with a smaller scale down of Bolshevik forces. Thanks again for the great scenario!

[OldCrowBalthazor]

@ formerlybalbo
Interesting observations. Glad you put the above on the forums.
I think StrategyWolfGames and I are going to do a mirror match of Shadow of the Tsars (latest version) with me as Reds this time.
Im am not certain there was a balance issue or just was unfamiliar with the scenario on his part as Bolsheviks with our last series.
BNC has a point that when seeking balance, some abstraction is needed.
This conflict, especially with the Whites, is so complex. It's credit to the designer that this scenario works as well as it does.
Still I was interested in the idea of reducing the strength of both sides at the beginning.
Cheers

[formerlybalbo]

@ formerlybalbo
Interesting observations. Glad you put the above on the forums.
I think StrategyWolfGames and I are going to do a mirror match of Shadow of the Tsars (latest version) with me as Reds this time.
Im am not certain there was a balance issue or just was unfamiliar with the scenario on his part as Bolsheviks with our last series.
BNC has a point that when seeking balance, some abstraction is needed.
This conflict, especially with the Whites, is so complex. It's credit to the designer that this scenario works as well as it does.
Still I was interested in the idea of reducing the strength of both sides at the beginning.
Cheers

Thanks OCB, I said that I would after our exchange in the comments, this is such a great scenario so I'm very interested in it.
Sounds great, I'm very much looking forward to it.
There definitely wasn't as much of a balance issue in your game with SWG as there was with your one versus Duedman, that's for sure, I think that you just got the better of him and he was un-familiar with it for the most part.
Absolutely, there's so many factors so it really speaks to the efforts of the developers that it's as good as it is.
Indeed, the transformation of some of the corps into divisions on both sides mightn't be a bad idea, especially for the Poles, the idea of them just being able to sweep through all of Ukraine after annexing Galicia is crazy, they're much too strong at the moment, more so than any other White faction.