New Public Beta - v1128 Live Now!

[btd64]

If I am installing a new copy do I just install base game and patch v1128 or do I need other patches as well?

Base game and 1128....GP

[s2tanker]

Which patch rendered kamikazes completely ineffective compared to historical norms? I'm seeing large groups of kamikazes achieving about a 4% hit rate, if that, with fighter CAP routinely clearing all of them out before reaching the target - and the few that make it through unlikely to hit anything.

[btd64]

Which patch rendered kamikazes completely ineffective compared to historical norms? I'm seeing large groups of kamikazes achieving about a 4% hit rate, if that, with fighter CAP routinely clearing all of them out before reaching the target - and the few that make it through unlikely to hit anything.

Are you playing a mod or something else?....GP

[s2tanker]

No, the latest patch in a PvP game.

It used to be that Kamikazes came in one large wave and a few got through, closely simulating the fact that from the 10 months from October 1944 to VJ Day in 1945 (per Wiki):

"According to the United States Strategic Bombing Survey, from October 1944 until the end of the war, 2,550 Kamikaze missions were flown with only 475 (or 18.6%) achieving a hit or a damaging near miss. Warships of all types were damaged including 12 aircraft carriers, 15 battleships, and 16 light and escort carriers. However, no ship larger than an escort carrier was sunk. Approximately 45 ships were sunk, the bulk of which were destroyers. To the United States, the losses were of such concern that more than 2,000 B-29 sorties were diverted from attacking Japanese cities and industries to striking Kamikaze air fields in Kyushu."

This 18.6% historical rate is close to what I recall a few years and a couple of patches ago. Now the success rate is about 3-4% with the v1128 patch. It may have changed a patch or two ago.

[btd64]

We didn't change anything for this. Can you post a save and i'll pass it on and see what we can do. maybe a series of bad die rolls for the AI....GP

[btd64]

Oh, And what scenario are you playing?....GP

[s2tanker]

Hakko Ichio.

It's not just me, my opponent says that the shift was from kamikaze attacking in a large wave vs. now with piecemeal. Few of the aircraft get through. We've had about 25 kamikaze missions so far from May 1944 to August 1944, losing about 400 aircraft (with this scenario, the Japanese have many more aircraft than historic). Most of the aircraft lost are bombers: Frances, Helen, Peggy, Betty-2, George, and Tojo-C.

The kamikazes have scored 1 hit each on British BBs, doing no damage, and 2 hits on a CVE, sinking it, with another on a CVE for no damage. Other ships sunk include: 3 US DDs, 2 US SC, 2 UK AP, and 1 UK AK. This totals about 13-15 hits for about 400 aircraft lost for an almost 4% hit rate.

[btd64]

Post a save here....GP

[s2tanker]

Here's of the game in progress. No kamikaze mission this turn.

[s2tanker]

Grok believes Patch 1.01.24 or Patch 1.01.08 might be the culprits in nerfing kamikazes. Perhaps we're seeing a nerf that represents late-war Allied tactics that largely neutralized kamikaze effectiveness. Regardless, it's frustrating as all get out to labor carefully over months of real time to build up a large aircraft industry with an eye towards the endgame and then see 120 kamikazes (80 dive bombers, 40 medium bombers), and 30 escorts attack with no effect.

[RangerJoe]

Grok believes Patch 1.01.24 or Patch 1.01.08 might be the culprits in nerfing kamikazes. Perhaps we're seeing a nerf that represents late-war Allied tactics that largely neutralized kamikaze effectiveness. Regardless, it's frustrating as all get out to labor carefully over months of real time to build up a large aircraft industry with an eye towards the endgame and then see 120 kamikazes (80 dive bombers, 40 medium bombers), and 30 escorts attack with no effect.

Just from that aircraft count I see that there are not enough escorts!

[s2tanker]

You're missing the point. The whole reason why early kamikaze missions were successful has to do with time and space. Aircraft closing in on ships on a one-way mission could only be shot down by opposing fighters one at a time. With defensive armament, some may take a few passes to down. An aircraft flying at 306 MPH (Helen) can cover 5.1 miles a minute, that's 8 minutes over the standard hexside in the game and 16 minutes over 2 hexsides - that's not a lot of time to vector CAP (just a percentage of aircraft available - let's say, out of 350 aircraft in 3 CVs and 2 CVLs, 130 are fighters, of those, 40% are flying CAP for a total of 52. Assuming the escorts and the fighters engage, that about 22 fighters clear to start downing incoming kamikazes. So, 22 to destroy 120 aircraft in 16 minutes or less? That's a lot of sky to find incoming aircraft. Typically, in these runs, I'll see less than 10 kamikazes break through with half downed by AAA and the rest missing their targets.

The point is that kamikazes achieved a 15-20% hit rate historically - and that's with a Japan having seen far more losses and far fewer aircraft than I was able to muster in the Hakko Ichio scenario. Even with larger numbers of escorts, the result was the same and effectiveness was far less than I recall in the version of the game as it existed about 10 years ago.

[RangerJoe]

You're missing the point. The whole reason why early kamikaze missions were successful has to do with time and space. Aircraft closing in on ships on a one-way mission could only be shot down by opposing fighters one at a time. With defensive armament, some may take a few passes to down. An aircraft flying at 306 MPH (Helen) can cover 5.1 miles a minute, that's 8 minutes over the standard hexside in the game and 16 minutes over 2 hexsides - that's not a lot of time to vector CAP (just a percentage of aircraft available - let's say, out of 350 aircraft in 3 CVs and 2 CVLs, 130 are fighters, of those, 40% are flying CAP for a total of 52. Assuming the escorts and the fighters engage, that about 22 fighters clear to start downing incoming kamikazes. So, 22 to destroy 120 aircraft in 16 minutes or less? That's a lot of sky to find incoming aircraft. Typically, in these runs, I'll see less than 10 kamikazes break through with half downed by AAA and the rest missing their targets.

The point is that kamikazes achieved a 15-20% hit rate historically - and that's with a Japan having seen far more losses and far fewer aircraft than I was able to muster in the Hakko Ichio scenario. Even with larger numbers of escorts, the result was the same and effectiveness was far less than I recall in the version of the game as it existed about 10 years ago.

I also think that you are forgetting about the "plane guard destroyers" and other vessels farther out that provided both radar coverage and fighter control. The aircraft were also not necessarily flying at maximum speed to the target area, they will fly at the most economical cruising speed to the target. You are also presuming that the fighters on CAP and the escorts are taken out from consideration on a 1:1 ratio and that is not the actual situation. Also, just because CAP is at 40% does not mean that only those fighters will provide CAP, all available fighters will fly CAP! If necessary and within the time available, the aircraft carriers and any ground air units flying CAP over the target area will launch additional fighters for that CAP.

[s2tanker]

My point is that some 10 years ago, kamikazes would inflict damage very close to historical. Something has happened in the patches since then has nerfed them.

Also, regarding the other carrier aircraft not on CAP - they were 300 miles away escorting their own bombing mission, thus, unavailable for CAP.

[RangerJoe]

My point is that some 10 years ago, kamikazes would inflict damage very close to historical. Something has happened in the patches since then has nerfed them.

Also, regarding the other carrier aircraft not on CAP - they were 300 miles away escorting their own bombing mission, thus, unavailable for CAP.

My point is also how could an American fighter pilot shoot down 5 enemy aircraft in 4 minutes?

The son of one of Al Capone's lawyers:
https://worldwarwings.com/american-pilo ... -5-planes/

[Tanaka]

My point is that some 10 years ago, kamikazes would inflict damage very close to historical. Something has happened in the patches since then has nerfed them.

Also, regarding the other carrier aircraft not on CAP - they were 300 miles away escorting their own bombing mission, thus, unavailable for CAP.

Same thing with fighter strafing at 100 feet. You used to be able to get decent results now the option is no longer usable. See the Pearl Harbor airfields strike now compared to historical...

[CaptBeefheart]

I'm not sure about the kamis. I'm playing against Ironman Japan and 4% or even less seems likely for the hit rate. The invasion of Japan will result in 2000 or so IJ aircraft being shot down (the combat reports are too long to bother with counting kamis). I usually keep my carrier fighters at 90% CAP, 10% rest, 0 range, and several altitudes. I have quite a few USN aces.

I managed to avoid the bulk of the KB until late 1944, when I had to go up against waves of it near the PI (I avoided CenPac and the Marianas entirely since I was always outnumbered in carriers). Not a lot of my DBs and TBs would get through and I didn't do a lot of sinking in '44. However, once the carriers reorganized to VF and VBF squadrons with F6F-5s and F4U-1Ds, respectively, I found I could sink whatever the IJN sent my way. I'd set all F4U-1Ds to 100ft Naval Attack missions and although they took serious losses, they'd shred the IJN with their 1000-lb. bombs. 450 Corsairs doing low-level attacks on an IJ fleet is something to see. Complete carnage.

Cheers,
CB

[btd64]

Thank you for the advice. The level 3 nasty is my stress relief these days. And I'm getting close to the end of 1943....GP

[CaptBeefheart]

Ironman is a great stress reliever. I have a recently developed a right wrist problem, though, and that might be from this game and all its clicks. I don't think it's from the other thing people say your wrist might get used for.

I managed to land at Kurume in July 1945 and I'll either stop there or take a long break. Speaking of too many clicks, I don't fancy playing the Sovs.

Cheers,
CB

[Neil Hilton]

Is the latest beta v1128 still being worked on?