Regimental Pionier Squads in German Infantry Divisions missing

[Wiedrock]

The basic German Infantry Divisions are missing 3x3x10Men Pionier Squads.
Most likely this is caused due to the fact that those additional three squads initially had no LMG and were therefore not visible in charts like this one where you only see the 3 LMGs and not that there are actually 6 Squads. Later on all of those squads got a LMG.

Source: Niehorster (see link in Text)

1stWave_Pioniere.png (5.09 KiB) Viewed 1118 times

The exact KSTN does seem to no longer exist, but:
Tessin/Niehorster note that:

KSTN 196 "Inf. Pi. Zug"
30.12.39 (Behelf)
01.04.40 (ab 1941 in KStN 130 enthalten) [-> starting from 1941 in KSTN 130 included]

In 1939 it may have looked like this.
In 41 the LL-Luftlande variant as an example.
Here the n.A. late 1943 and the ID44 variant.
This using 3 instead of 6 also reflects the reason why here the number is also 36 instead of 45, so it seems like a general issue with most of the OBs.

[MechFO]

The basic German Infantry Divisions are missing 3x3x10Men Pionier Squads.
Most likely this is caused due to the fact that those additional three squads initially had no LMG and were therefore not visible in charts like this one where you only see the 3 LMGs and not that there are actually 6 Squads. Later on all of those squads got a LMG.
1stWave_Pioniere.png
The exact KSTN does seem to no longer exist, but:
Tessin/Niehorster note that:

KSTN 196 "Inf. Pi. Zug"
30.12.39 (Behelf)
01.04.40 (ab 1941 in KStN 130 enthalten) [-> starting from 1941 in KSTN 130 included]

In 1939 it may have looked like this.
In 41 the LL-Luftlande variant as an example.
Here the n.A. late 1943 and the ID44 variant.
This using 3 instead of 6 also reflects the reason why here the number is also 36 instead of 45, so it seems like a general issue with most of the OBs.

below is from 1942

And this is news to me, even after all these years, the Infantry Regimental Pioneer Platoon always consisted of 6 squads, Regimental KSTN from February 1942, however there were only 3 LMG's until nA when all squads received one. Pioneer numbers probably need to be bumped in the pre nA TOE's.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/4
nA

[Wiedrock]

below is from 1942

The first one is a nice finding!

Maybe you can give some additional info on some of the TOEs I marked below in orange! ...and if no factual info, some ideas from thin air are appreciated as well!

---

Continuing working on WOTE.
I added the missing Squad type (Pioneers without LMG) - suggestions on the WIP appreciated.
It may have been that initially the Infantry Pioneers had no SMGs (1939) and then got at least 3 SMGs in 1940/41 and finally got 6 (1per Squad) in 1942. To not add additinal element changes 1xSMG it is until the Update to the normal pioneers after 09/43. The Equipment (explosives and so on) therefore is WIP.
I for now decided to make them Labor Squads as an compromise between useless support (before) and somwhat strongest Squads (engineers) - also taking into account that Soviets in vanilla do not have any engineers before 43 (Sapper Engineers are Labor Squads).


The green TOEs I've added those missing Squads and removed Support Squads (+9x10-5x20 → -10men).
The rose marked ones are the 10/43+ ones which should all use "normal Pioneers" with LMG and so on.
The orange ones I am not 100% sure what's the matter, nothing done there yet.
The red ones I am somewhat confident that they never had such types(or any) Infantry Pioneers.
Note/Context: Notes indicate for some TOEs, that Infanterists inside the companies were additionally trained to fullfill pioneer duties when needed.

[MechFO]

below is from 1942

The first one is a nice finding!

Maybe you can give some additional info on some of the TOEs I marked below in orange! ...and if no factual info, some ideas from thin air are appreciated as well!

---

Continuing working on WOTE.
I added the missing Squad type (Pioneers without LMG) - suggestions on the WIP appreciated.
It may have been that initially the Infantry Pioneers had no SMGs (1939) and then got at least 3 SMGs in 1940/41 and finally got 6 (1per Squad) in 1942. To not add additinal element changes 1xSMG it is until the Update to the normal pioneers after 09/43. The Equipment (explosives and so on) therefore is WIP.
I for now decided to make them Labor Squads as an compromise between useless support (before) and somwhat strongest Squads (engineers) - also taking into account that Soviets in vanilla do not have any engineers before 43 (Sapper Engineers are Labor Squads).

I don't see any justification for the (-) squads to be anything other than normal Pioniere, they were certainly trained as such and fulfilled the identical roles. Having an LMG or not is of secondary importance for them.

I don't know the background of the Soviet Sappers.

AFAIK the reduced Infantry Divisions were normal Divisions whose infantry had been bled out and consolidated, so at least those should have the normal Regimental organisation.

Sturm Division would the 78th Inf Div and should have the standard 1. Welle organisation with extra StuG and PzJ. Lexikon d. W. notes the reduced organisation in early 43 but this was due to heavy losses in the previous fighting.

Regarding who has the Regimental Pio Platoon I believe

12th Wave -------- should have

Walküre II and static 20th Wave are the same units, this is a double entry ----- should have https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gl ... n/38ID.htm

20. Welle: 38., 39., 65. Infanterie-Division (3 Divisionen)
Aufstellung Dezember 1941 auf das Stichwort „WALKÜRE II“ aus Teilen des Ersatzheeres,
zur Sicherung der Kanalküste, die durch Abzug von Divisionen an die Ostfront gefährdet schien. Die Divisionen hatten nur zwei Regimenter, jedes Regiment 12 Infanteriekompanien und eine Panzerjägerkompanie, die Infanteriegeschützkompanie fehlte noch bis zum Winter 1942/1943.

17th Welle 12/41 --- should not have, reinforced to normal from 10/42 onward https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Zu ... 16-35W.htm



I'm not sure which Divisions the Fortress and Western Static are supposed to cover, the Field Training Divisions shouldn't have an entry. https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gl ... derung.htm

There is some information about various Reserve/Replacement Divisions like 141, 151, 401, 461 below

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8

[Wiedrock]

Thanks for the input, I will look throught that at the weekend.

Walküre II and static 20th Wave are the same units, this is a double entry ----- should have

I did not check if both TOEs are used (in GC41 ...maybe in other scenarios), I guess it is possible that some Divisions that were quickly rotated east (or so) are represented by the larger TOE. Additionally there are several Divisions being formed which were not created "in a wave" but separate (with varying TOEs and so on).

[Wiedrock]

Walküre II and static 20th Wave are the same units, this is a double entry ----- should have

The 2 Walküre TOEs have a 216 Inf (4x3x3x3x2 (not 100% sure whether its 4 Squads or 4 Companies per Batallion).
The 20th Wave with 288 Squads is a 4Sqx3Pltx4Cox3Batx2Reg Setup (or 4x4x3x3x2, again not sure) - or 2Batx3Reg at the end...
I'll leave em as they are unless we get more info.

AFAIK the reduced Infantry Divisions were normal Divisions whose infantry had been bled out and consolidated, so at least those should have the normal Regimental organisation.

I guess the question is if they have been 2Reg3Bat or 3Reg2Bat configuration. In GC41 those are not used at all afaik. I'd guess the Devs had some good example TOEs or Divisional reports and made them from this.
There are:

• 2x with 36 Pioneers (arguably 27pioneerbat + 3regx3squads)
• 3x with 33 Pioneers (arguably 27pioneerbat + 2regx3squads)
• 1x with 39 Pioneers (not sure about that one...some later TOEs give a 4 LMG number in the regimental Pioneers. Maybe it is related to this, or taking the 6 Pioneers in a 2 Regiment configuration 27+12=39)

So I will for now go with:

• 3x 3Reg2Bat → (27+3x6Squads = 45)
• 3x 2Reg3Bat → (27+2x6Squads = 39)

Sturm Division would the 78th Inf Div and should have the standard 1. Welle organisation with extra StuG and PzJ. Lexikon d. W. notes the reduced organisation in early 43 but this was due to heavy losses in the previous fighting.

Yea they were 1.Welle except of one 14th Regiment which was mentioned to be 2.Welle. I've looked into the 78th like 2 years ago, looking through several of their NARA rolls and it pretty much was a mess of changes from what I have seen. One important thing I remember being changed was that the line Infantry was rather early on testing with 2 LMG setups for increased firepower. But their TOE is a whole other subject. I'll leave them as they are.

Same goes for the later Airlanding TOEs without further info.

12th Wave -------- should have

copy.

I'm not sure which Divisions the Fortress and Western Static are supposed to cover, the Field Training Divisions shouldn't have an entry. https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gl ... derung.htm

Yea, rarely/not used in GC41 used anyways - I'll leave em as they are, Static and Fortress Divisions are yet another Thread anyways, so maybe one day things get clearer on them when sources are available.

There is some information about various Reserve/Replacement Divisions like 141, 151, 401, 461 below

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8

Funny how one Division has 4 Pioneer Companies in the Pioneer Battalion and 9xInfantry Pioneers. I'll leave Reserve out, since they do not have a separate TOE only individual IDs have been named as Reserve.

I don't see any justification for the (-) squads to be anything other than normal Pioniere, they were certainly trained as such and fulfilled the identical roles. Having an LMG or not is of secondary importance for them.

I don't know the background of the Soviet Sappers.

Yea its as said a middleground/compromise. To be an "Assault Engineer" I assume you'd need to have LMGs to give suppressive fire to even be able to reach areas to use any kind of CQC with flamers and so on.
As Labor Squad their men still have 12x more Fort Construction power than a regular Infantry man (engineers have 24x). Additionally they now can shoot and provide double CV already, that's why for me it's a good compromise. May change it when I come to the Soviet Sappers one day.

[MechFO]

AFAIK the reduced Infantry Divisions were normal Divisions whose infantry had been bled out and consolidated, so at least those should have the normal Regimental organisation.

I guess the question is if they have been 2Reg3Bat or 3Reg2Bat configuration. In GC41 those are not used at all afaik. I'd guess the Devs had some good example TOEs or Divisional reports and made them from this.
There are:

• 2x with 36 Pioneers (arguably 27pioneerbat + 3regx3squads)
• 3x with 33 Pioneers (arguably 27pioneerbat + 2regx3squads)
• 1x with 39 Pioneers (not sure about that one...some later TOEs give a 4 LMG number in the regimental Pioneers. Maybe it is related to this, or taking the 6 Pioneers in a 2 Regiment configuration 27+12=39)

So I will for now go with:

• 3x 3Reg2Bat → (27+3x6Squads = 45)
• 3x 2Reg3Bat → (27+2x6Squads = 39)

These were maybe single Regiment with 3 Bat or 2 Regiments with 2 Bat. Not sure if anybody actually uses this.

I don't see any justification for the (-) squads to be anything other than normal Pioniere, they were certainly trained as such and fulfilled the identical roles. Having an LMG or not is of secondary importance for them.

I don't know the background of the Soviet Sappers.

Yea its as said a middleground/compromise. To be an "Assault Engineer" I assume you'd need to have LMGs to give suppressive fire to even be able to reach areas to use any kind of CQC with flamers and so on.
As Labor Squad their men still have 12x more Fort Construction power than a regular Infantry man (engineers have 24x). Additionally they now can shoot and provide double CV already, that's why for me it's a good compromise. May change it when I come to the Soviet Sappers one day.

The value of these Engineers was their demolition and mine/mine clearing training. Especially at Regimental level they would not be used alone but task organised and attached to infantry for special tasks. Late war extra MG was IMO probably because they were often pressed and misused into serving as line infantry.

[MechFO]

The red ones I am somewhat confident that they never had such types(or any) Infantry Pioneers.
Note/Context: Notes indicate for some TOEs, that Infanterists inside the companies were additionally trained to fullfill pioneer duties when needed.

15. Wave Inf Div 245 (bodenständig) July 44.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

Had Regimental Pioniers and also the OB 434 in general needs some adjustment. Note the extra 2cm Flak in the Art Batteries.

Or this is supposed to be already OB 473 44 Type 3. Not sure how it works if OB 434 runs to August 44 but the follow on OB is already available in March 44.


https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7

List of other Gliederungen in the document

Bodenständig
25-29. Welle
SS-Gren Div
SS-Geb Div
Kav Brigade
SS Kav Division

[Wiedrock]

The red ones I am somewhat confident that they never had such types(or any) Infantry Pioneers.
Note/Context: Notes indicate for some TOEs, that Infanterists inside the companies were additionally trained to fullfill pioneer duties when needed.

15. Wave Inf Div 245 (bodenständig) July 44.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

Had Regimental Pioniers and also the OB 434 in general needs some adjustment. Note the extra 2cm Flak in the Art Batteries.

Or this is supposed to be already OB 473 44 Type 3. Not sure how it works if OB 434 runs to August 44 but the follow on OB is already available in March 44.

The Devs made it a "15.Welle", but it actually was not (2Regt. vs 3Regt.; 3Art.Batteries vs 3Art.Abt. and so on), it was some inbewteeny way later just formes for the same purpose. I just quickly checked Nafziger's "The German Order of Battle Infantry in World War II", I think when it comes to TOE buildups at a certain point in time he's a good overview. But I've not found the time to look through that book on all the different subjects we were so far looking into yet.

The initial 15.Welle TOE looks about alright (concernign the Inf.Pi.Squads).
...BUT THE MANPOWER!!! 13kMen → 500Support for a STATIC INFANTRY DIVISION!!! ). I may have found the place where all the 8k missing Men Support from the Mountain Divisions are....they've been on vacation in France all the war!


......Statics/Fortress/Reserve/LW Field are yet to be explored properly ....at one point in time.

[MechFO]

The red ones I am somewhat confident that they never had such types(or any) Infantry Pioneers.
Note/Context: Notes indicate for some TOEs, that Infanterists inside the companies were additionally trained to fullfill pioneer duties when needed.

15. Wave Inf Div 245 (bodenständig) July 44.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

Had Regimental Pioniers and also the OB 434 in general needs some adjustment. Note the extra 2cm Flak in the Art Batteries.

Or this is supposed to be already OB 473 44 Type 3. Not sure how it works if OB 434 runs to August 44 but the follow on OB is already available in March 44.

The Devs made it a "15.Welle", but it actually was not (2Regt. vs 3Regt.; 3Art.Batteries vs 3Art.Abt. and so on), it was some inbewteeny way later just formes for the same purpose. I just quickly checked Nafziger's "The German Order of Battle Infantry in World War II", I think when it comes to TOE buildups at a certain point in time he's a good overview. But I've not found the time to look through that book on all the different subjects we were so far looking into yet.

The initial 15.Welle TOE looks about alright (concernign the Inf.Pi.Squads).
...BUT THE MANPOWER!!! 13kMen → 500Support for a STATIC INFANTRY DIVISION!!! ). I may have found the place where all the 8k missing Men Support from the Mountain Divisions are....they've been on vacation in France all the war!


......Statics/Fortress/Reserve/LW Field are yet to be explored properly ....at one point in time.

T71 Roll 311 page 62 (NARA page 6 262821)

Inf DIv 245 strength report for 01.07.1944, here it is still a 9 Battalion organisation and various other changes, so the above must be the Inf Div 44 Gliederung that's supposed to be represented by OB 473 44 Type 3.