The German SMG Squad [ID:87]

[Wiedrock]

Currently in the game there is one German SMG Squad.

It is used in:
44 Grenadier Sperr Division (08/1944)
44 Volksgrenadier Division (07/1944)
44 Volksgrenadier Regiment (07/1944)
44 Fortress Infantry Battalion (08/1944)
→ more information and issues with the TOEs/their in this Thread.

SMG Squad GER.png (260.35 KiB) Viewed 555 times

As you may notice it starts production in 10/1943. But the TOEs where it is being used are dated way later. Additionally it is directly upgraded into a Sturm Squad (-) (with all StG44s). I don't know and can't find an official TOE/KSTN using solely SMGs which would not be related to the known issue of irritating the StG44 for being an MP40.
If anyone has any evidence towards a Company/Squad structure with fully SMGs which is not linked to confusion between StG44 and MP40, pls share!

A little Story:
The MP40 was never intended to be used as main armament of whole Platoons/multiple Platoons in "basic Infantry" Divisions. The cause which made the SMG Squad find its way into the game is understandable tho, since even amongst commanders back then was confusion about the new "MP Platoons" in their Divisions.
The infamous StG44 was back then also known as MP43, MP44 (and some other terms/abbreviations which changed during development/testing). Because of that it was often abbreviated simply as MP - as was the MP40. This caused lots of confusion, as mentioned.
German accountant lists back then had one collumn for Kar98/G43 (so rifles+semi-automatic rifles) and one Collumn for Pistols/Machine Pistols. The issue with the MP44, ...or StG44 was now in which collumn it was to be listed - and how it was supposed to be named! After all it was a completely new category of weapon sitting inbetween the Rifles and the MPs with intermediate cartridge!

Early on the KSTNs simply refgerred to it as an MP - and people thought it'd be MP40s. That's why you often see this kind of notes at such collumns added by accountants/officers to lessen the confusion.

MP44vsMP40.png (110.57 KiB) Viewed 555 times

If you do not believe my somewhat short-phrased "story" (I don't want to go too deep) you can simply look into the Production numbers for SMGs and StGs in 1944 and see yourself if you see any indication towards the large scale intended introduction of fully SMG equipped Squads (1xMP-Platoon per Company - later 2xMP-Platoons per Company) to so many Divisions as can be seen in the following two TOEs (as mentioned further details on them you can find in this Thread).

StG_Welle 29+32.png (3.76 MiB) Viewed 555 times

Attached one of the earlier KSTNs which they finally managed to properly name it MP44 so it was clear that it'd not be an MP40! This is the KSTN used in the 29.Welle Grenadier Division TOE shown above, the 3rd Platoon of each Company was to be equpped with StGs (not fully, it just was replacing the Rifles, but I won't go into the whole squad structure in here).

KSTN_131Sp_144dpi_75%.pdf

(1.61 MiB) Downloaded 19 times

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn131sp8jul44.htm

So point being, the German SMG squad from how far I have found evidence, can go and be replaced by a Squad simply replacing the Kar98 with StG44s (and the G43 eventually).

[Wiedrock]

The infamous StG44 was back then also known as MP43, MP44 (and some other terms/abbreviations which changed during development/testing). Because of that it was often abbreviated simply as MP - as was the MP40. This caused lots of confusion, as mentioned.
German accountant lists back then had one collumn for Kar98/G43 (so rifles+semi-automatic rifles) and one Collumn for Pistols/Machine Pistols. The issue with the MP44, ...or StG44 was now in which collumn it was to be listed - and how it was supposed to be named!

Some requests for clarification on this topic. Found in BArch RH 11-I/54 pics 199+200.

[Light4bettor]

Excellent research/work, also (admittedly my following statement does not prove anything)- There is likely not one WW2 photo in existence that indicates/suggests an German infantry squad fully armed with MP40 burp guns (as your photo indicates it was primarily a squad leader weapon- that photo in the unit box- is a photo of two German NCOs at Stalingrad doing a photo OP for German propaganda during the the earliest stages of Stalingrad - very early September). More importantly, I would even say that even if there were situations were an adhoc squad full of MP40s would be desirable- the difficulty of procuring enough MP40s to outfit said adhoc squad would be impracticable (saying this in the context of a spontaneous need within a standard infantry battalion). For defintions- NCO = Non-commsioned Officer = Feld Webel = Small unit/section/squad leader.

Just as a supporting note: the problems with a squad of MP40s would start with its practical uselessness at ranges beyond 35-50 meters and logistically within the context of ammo consumption (if the whole war was fought in a stalingrad situation- that's a different premise).

[Wiedrock]

There is likely not one WW2 photo in existence that indicates/suggests an German infantry squad fully armed with MP40 burp guns (as your photo indicates it was primarily a squad leader weapon- that photo in the unit box- is a photo of two German NCOs at Stalingrad doing a photo OP for German propaganda during the the earliest stages of Stalingrad - very early September).

Yep, for sure there have been some weapons exchanges here and there (or/and lots of Soviet SMG usage) but nothing I've seen to rly provide a full SMG squad from the get-go.
What I am currently looking for are the 2 "new" KSTNs for Mountain (KSTN 132 (01.03.1944)) an Jäger (KSTN 131a (01.12.1943)) Divisions. Those have all shown 7x"MP"/Squad (+2 Rifle + 1LMG). We'll see if I find any evidence that those numbers are supposed to show MP40s or StG44s, I am 99% certain it is the latter, but who knows.

The Folders I am currently looking through also contain a "evaluation request" from summer/autum 1944 on replacing the intended new StG44 with MP40 (or ital. Beretta) until sufficient StG44 are available, but it is highlighted that this would as you say not be beneficial in context of Company performance / range - so the suggestion of the evaluation was to not apply this makeshift solution/suggestion.

Regarding Production - interestingly it was proclaimed to terminate production of the MP40 completely at some point in autumn 1943 in those Folders (in context of replacing all MP40 with StG44). Obviously it never happened and whoever suggested this may have missed that AFV drivers would still need them ....altough maybe they intended replacing them with other types (Beretta(?)) but that's just a guess.

Further interesting is that the folders contain some Finnish and Soviet Manuals on squad tactics with fully automatic weapon squads (summer/autumn 1944). The German Manual on the use of "MP Platoons" 25a/16 was published on Februar 1st 1944.

[MechFO]

There is likely not one WW2 photo in existence that indicates/suggests an German infantry squad fully armed with MP40 burp guns (as your photo indicates it was primarily a squad leader weapon- that photo in the unit box- is a photo of two German NCOs at Stalingrad doing a photo OP for German propaganda during the the earliest stages of Stalingrad - very early September).

Yep, for sure there have been some weapons exchanges here and there (or/and lots of Soviet SMG usage) but nothing I've seen to rly provide a full SMG squad from the get-go.

Not the first to follow this and everyone seems to reach the same conclusion.

What I am currently looking for are the 2 "new" KSTNs for Mountain (KSTN 132 (01.03.1944)) an Jäger (KSTN 131a (01.12.1943)) Divisions. Those have all shown 7x"MP"/Squad (+2 Rifle + 1LMG). We'll see if I find any evidence that those numbers are supposed to show MP40s or StG44s, I am 99% certain it is the latter, but who knows.

I have some 44 Jäger KSTN's but will be a few days until I'm back.

[MechFO]

Yep, for sure there have been some weapons exchanges here and there (or/and lots of Soviet SMG usage) but nothing I've seen to rly provide a full SMG squad from the get-go.
What I am currently looking for are the 2 "new" KSTNs for Mountain (KSTN 132 (01.03.1944)) an Jäger (KSTN 131a (01.12.1943)) Divisions. Those have all shown 7x"MP"/Squad (+2 Rifle + 1LMG). We'll see if I find any evidence that those numbers are supposed to show MP40s or StG44s, I am 99% certain it is the latter, but who knows.

Check NARA T78 Roll 391 document group H1/28a (complete)

131a PDF Page 156 ff
132 PDF Page 186 ff

The MP's are listed as Masch Pi, but clarification on what category StG43/44 belong to only came later. 132a (Hochgeb Jäg Kp) also has a very high number of MPi (13 Gew, 25 MPi) per platoon, and a such a proportion of SMG does not seem suited for that kind of enviroment.

others of possible interest
T78 Roll 397

Making things stranger is that in a Man/Weapon/vehicle overview for Inf Div 44 from 03.1944, there are the categories

Gewehre (Selbstladegewehre) // Selbstl. Gew m. Z. ((something I can't read)) // Pistolen (Masch Pist)


so two separate categories for Selbstladegewehre.

[Denniss]

maybe m.Z.F = mit Zielfernrohr ?

[Wiedrock]

Yep the "Z." is missing the "f" to be "Zf.". Why have one abbreviation if you cn have multiple?

NARA T78 Roll 391 document group H1/28a (complete)

[...]

others of possible interest
T78 Roll 397

I have T78 391-397 all in PDF format. What's the "H1/28a" ? ...sounds like a bird-flu variation

[DekeFentle]

Possibly buried somewhere in here?

https://www.allworldwars.com/Portable-F ... ar-II.html

[MechFO]

maybe m.Z.F = mit Zielfernrohr ?

Yes, but after the ZF there's another parthenthis which I can't make out. Looking at the entries it seems to be the Panzerschreck or similar weapons.

[MechFO]

Yep the "Z." is missing the "f" to be "Zf.". Why have one abbreviation if you cn have multiple?

NARA T78 Roll 391 document group H1/28a (complete)

[...]

others of possible interest
T78 Roll 397

I have T78 391-397 all in PDF format. What's the "H1/28a" ? ...sounds like a bird-flu variation

I downloaded this stuff from Sturmpanzer.com many years ago. In his files some rolls are split into different sections.

F.e. T78 Roll 397 has document groups H1/28 (complete) with 350 pages (Kriegsstärkenachweisungen (Heer))
and H1/30 (complete) with 66 pages (Liste der gültigen Kriegstärkenachweisungen Band I. 1945).

So it seems somebody made an effort to organise the documents in the rolls. I didn't bother to check the original to see if this was done then or by whomever Sturmpanzer got it from.

[MechFO]

There is likely not one WW2 photo in existence that indicates/suggests an German infantry squad fully armed with MP40 burp guns (as your photo indicates it was primarily a squad leader weapon- that photo in the unit box- is a photo of two German NCOs at Stalingrad doing a photo OP for German propaganda during the the earliest stages of Stalingrad - very early September).

Yep, for sure there have been some weapons exchanges here and there (or/and lots of Soviet SMG usage) but nothing I've seen to rly provide a full SMG squad from the get-go.
What I am currently looking for are the 2 "new" KSTNs for Mountain (KSTN 132 (01.03.1944)) an Jäger (KSTN 131a (01.12.1943)) Divisions. Those have all shown 7x"MP"/Squad (+2 Rifle + 1LMG). We'll see if I find any evidence that those numbers are supposed to show MP40s or StG44s, I am 99% certain it is the latter, but who knows.

The Folders I am currently looking through also contain a "evaluation request" from summer/autum 1944 on replacing the intended new StG44 with MP40 (or ital. Beretta) until sufficient StG44 are available, but it is highlighted that this would as you say not be beneficial in context of Company performance / range - so the suggestion of the evaluation was to not apply this makeshift solution/suggestion.

Regarding Production - interestingly it was proclaimed to terminate production of the MP40 completely at some point in autumn 1943 in those Folders (in context of replacing all MP40 with StG44). Obviously it never happened and whoever suggested this may have missed that AFV drivers would still need them ....altough maybe they intended replacing them with other types (Beretta(?)) but that's just a guess.

Further interesting is that the folders contain some Finnish and Soviet Manuals on squad tactics with fully automatic weapon squads (summer/autumn 1944). The German Manual on the use of "MP Platoons" 25a/16 was published on Februar 1st 1944.

IMO I have conclusive proof that until late 44 MP44 and MP 40 were listed together.



The later Sturm Z, are called MP, pay attention to the Div Füs Kp. The MP44 is listed in the Feldersatz Bat, so it is safe to assume it was issued in the Division.

The KSTN for the Füs Kp 149 V from 01.09.44 is on pages 219 ff of T78 Roll 391.

The MP Züge in the Inf Bat and in the Div Füs Kp must be the same.

This MP Zug organisation is nearly the same as the later Sturm Zug aside from

- the 3 Squads have 9 men,
-the 3 Gewehrgranatwerfer are integrated into the 3rd Squad instead of the Zugstrupp,
-the 3rd Squad has only 1 lMG instead of the later 2 (or 3).

Only (MashPist) are listed (26 per MP Zug) without any of the crosses/brackets or other notes that normally are used for special weaponry at the end. This can't be a coincidence.

[Wiedrock]

Sry I did not follow up on all of this since I was pretty busy in March and then 100 other things also were on the list.
BArch RH 11-I/54 has about everything you could dream off about the StG44.
Also see:
RH 11-I/53
RH 11-I/52a
RH 11-I/52b
RH 12-2/138
RH 12-2/140
...it's a lot, maybe even more. Only glanced through the most and only fully got/categorized through the /54 Folder.

IMO I have conclusive proof that until late 44 MP44 and MP 40 were listed together.

Yep, you can find the draft of an order on the change regarding to what column of the KSTNs the StG was supposed to be listed in if you scroll to this post.

And the final renaming to "Sturmgewehr (44)" happened in October.

StG44_renaming_RH_11_I_54_0330.jpg (243.79 KiB) Viewed 253 times

The later Sturm Z, are called MP, pay attention to the Div Füs Kp. The MP44 is listed in the Feldersatz Bat, so it is safe to assume it was issued in the Division.

Yes, the Folder also contains several things regarding which soldiers were supposed to be equipped. It all boiled down to only equip the companies (Inf/Füs...) and in those only the MP Platoons. There are also several "test TOEs" for companies with MP44s for their first usage on the front.
First there was one Platoon proposed and then 2 Platoons per Company (as also the regular TOEs indicate).

The MP Züge in the Inf Bat and in the Div Füs Kp must be the same.

This MP Zug organisation is nearly the same as the later Sturm Zug aside from

- the 3 Squads have 9 men,
-the 3 Gewehrgranatwerfer are integrated into the 3rd Squad instead of the Zugstrupp,
-the 3rd Squad has only 1 lMG instead of the later 2 (or 3).

Yep, the only thing happened was to get the Rifle Grenades at the Platoon level. Füsiliere used the same setup indeed.

A little Story:
The MP40 was never intended to be used as main armament of whole Platoons/multiple Platoons in "basic Infantry" Divisions.

The following as a side note is a request to concentrate MP40s and G43s in the frontline troops or the assault-reserve, the latter is a makeshift formation so has no regular setup/KSTN whatsoever, so they may have had full SMG equipment at times, may.

StG44_request for centralizing firepower_RH_11_I_54_0288.jpg (536.78 KiB) Viewed 253 times

What I am currently looking for are the 2 "new" KSTNs for Mountain (KSTN 132 (01.03.1944)) an Jäger (KSTN 131a (01.12.1943)) Divisions. Those have all shown 7x"MP"/Squad (+2 Rifle + 1LMG). We'll see if I find any evidence that those numbers are supposed to show MP40s or StG44s, I am 99% certain it is the latter, but who knows.

Again, those numbers are weird and rather early. Regarding the LMG I've found this conclusion that the LMG should be kept, this amy explain the 1 LMG (+2ifles), I'd assume those three were the LMG-Team intended for longer ranged engagements and "Sperrfeuer" - and an rare StG44 would be wasted for LMG supporters anyways.

StG44_early_LMG statement_RH_11_I_54_0033.jpg (424.99 KiB) Viewed 253 times

Further I've found this one, which speaks of potential weapons appropriate to replace StG44 temporarily. So at this early statges there may have been ideas in the direction of replacing the StG with (potentially) MP40 - but during that time the Squads also still had (as mentioned) other weapons at hand (LMG+Rifle (Jägers at least)) and the larger trials with fully StG setups and so on were just on their way/ongoing. So it either way always have been meant to be StG44s when there was/is a "MP" in a TOE/KSTN I'd say.
Besides this there's a training-school trial (which I mentiond before) from ~late summer 1944 where they tested the request for general SMG squads which showed that it doesn't make sense (for regular line infantry) - for obvious reasons like range.

StG44_replacement weapons_RH_11_I_52_b_0026.jpg (417.4 KiB) Viewed 253 times

[MechFO]

Great find!

What I am currently looking for are the 2 "new" KSTNs for Mountain (KSTN 132 (01.03.1944)) an Jäger (KSTN 131a (01.12.1943)) Divisions. Those have all shown 7x"MP"/Squad (+2 Rifle + 1LMG). We'll see if I find any evidence that those numbers are supposed to show MP40s or StG44s, I am 99% certain it is the latter, but who knows.

Again, those numbers are weird and rather early. Regarding the LMG I've found this conclusion that the LMG should be kept, this amy explain the 1 LMG (+2ifles), I'd assume those three were the LMG-Team intended for longer ranged engagements and "Sperrfeuer" - and an rare StG44 would be wasted for LMG supporters anyways.
StG44_early_LMG statement_RH_11_I_54_0033.jpg
Further I've found this one, which speaks of potential weapons appropriate to replace StG44 temporarily. So at this early statges there may have been ideas in the direction of replacing the StG with (potentially) MP40 - but during that time the Squads also still had (as mentioned) other weapons at hand (LMG+Rifle (Jägers at least)) and the larger trials with fully StG setups and so on were just on their way/ongoing. So it either way always have been meant to be StG44s when there was/is a "MP" in a TOE/KSTN I'd say.

Makes sense. Geb-/(Ski-/Jäger need a seperate Squad entry anyway due to their 10 man size.

It's going to be trickier is going to find general Sturmgewehr issue. The 1000 series Grenadier Brigades were apparently mainly equipped with them though of course I don't have the reference handy. The current system of them hardly being around and then suddenly arriving in a big wave in late 44 doesn't really work.

[MechFO]

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8

On MP43 production the Waffenamt received 18k bei the end of 1943 of which 5600 had been issued to units. Unfortunately I don't have later information than this. Though I have only searched on TSAMO.

EDIT: difference to LdW probably from (nur Ausführung B) so this only lists the numbers for the latest variant.

Ammunition doesn't help much either as the latest numbers I have is for February 1944. With monthly consumption reaching 5.4 Million rounds, which is surprisingly already nearly 20% of MP40 ammo consumption.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8

From various other documents, mainly wehrkreis industrial inspectorates, the general switch in ammo production from 9mm to 7.62kurz took place from March 1944 onward, with the stated intention of ending 9mm production.

https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Wa ... ewehre.htm

LdW has much higher numbers for 1943 but I dont know where they are from. It mentions 80k received by the Waffenamt by July 1944. It should be showing up in Squad TOE's much earlier than what is currently in game.

[Wiedrock]

Ammunition doesn't help much either as the latest numbers I have is for February 1944. With monthly consumption reaching 5.4 Million rounds, which is surprisingly already nearly 20% of MP40 ammo consumption.

Especially during this period, when reaching MP40 distances you've been screwed already.

From various other documents, mainly wehrkreis industrial inspectorates, the general switch in ammo production from 9mm to 7.62kurz took place from March 1944 onward, with the stated intention of ending 9mm production.

Sound similar to the intention (from memory) I've found in late 1943 to end MP40 production, (intention!).

On MP43 production the Waffenamt received 18k bei the end of 1943 of which 5600 had been issued to units. Unfortunately I don't have later information than this. Though I have only searched on TSAMO.

EDIT: difference to LdW probably from (nur Ausführung B) so this only lists the numbers for the latest variant.

see attachment

[MechFO]

RH 11-I/52a



The initial Sturmzug organisation in late 43/early 44.







Intended distribution late 43/early 44.


Expected inventory with planned production and a 5% wastage of inventory per month.