UV - Med??

[Becket]

Message boards frighten and confuse me.

[Becket]

ORIGINAL: Gecko

And what about land warfare? On a rectangular map Yugoslavia, Albania and part of Romania would be included if Italy and Greece are.
Should each hex fall under Soviet control as it did historically? Personally I would like to see another option like this: each reinforcement for the med theatre might be returned into a pool stemming the Soviet advance. That way it may be slowed down (completely under AI control).
Or should the Balkans be treated as a not-so-important area and be left out completely?

bye, Gecko

Interesting question there -- I would have assumed that UV med would have ended after the Axis was driven out of North Africa. I can't really see playing on into the Italian campaign in this game.

Is not the perfect scope for UV med 1941 to 1943, covering the opening assault of the British against the Italian positions through the final departure of Axis forces? (if they depart, obviously one of the goals of the Axis player would be to prevent that -- smash Malta, resupply Rommel, and take Alexandria)

The other point that occurs to me is that diverting German forces in the med to stem the Soviet advance would be somewhat akin to trying to stop a forest fire with a bucket of water. The forces involved in the East Front are so much more massive than those in the Med, where a large battle might involve 80,000 troops on each side and 100-200 tanks -- compared to something like Kursk, which all combined involved over a million men and a few thousand tanks (nearly 1000 tanks at Prohkorovka alone).

[Gecko]

Is not the perfect scope for UV med 1941 to 1943, covering the opening assault of the British against the Italian positions through the final departure of Axis forces?

If the forces at Malta are set up historically (and there should be no issue why this should not be done) then the Axis player would be stupid not to invade Malta. In 1938 the Italian supreme command noticed that such an invasion should be easy. When Italy entered the war with Britain Malta's air defense consisted of 172 AA Guns and three Gloster Gladiators. That alone would give the Axis player enough strength to keep North African forces supplied - even in 1943.

bye, Gecko

[Becket]

ORIGINAL: Gecko

Is not the perfect scope for UV med 1941 to 1943, covering the opening assault of the British against the Italian positions through the final departure of Axis forces?

If the forces at Malta are set up historically (and there should be no issue why this should not be done) then the Axis player would be stupid not to invade Malta. In 1938 the Italian supreme command noticed that such an invasion should be easy. When Italy entered the war with Britain Malta's air defense consisted of 172 AA Guns and three Gloster Gladiators. That alone would give the Axis player enough strength to keep North African forces supplied - even in 1943.

bye, Gecko

Much like a Japanese player could take PM and Noumea in UV, but that doesn't mean UV should keep going to 1945 with the IJN merrily chugging along in the Solomons while the homeland is in flames.

IMHO, the point of the game would be to do better than Rommel & Co. did within the same time frame. Going past the time frame becomes too much of a what if -- first, 2by3 will have no way of making Axis reinforcements available w/o being completely ahistoric. Staying within the 1941 to 1943 time frame allows you to play with the units available in the theater without worrying about the onrushing Titan from the East after late 43.

[Capt. Harlock]

Interesting question there -- I would have assumed that UV med would have ended after the Axis was driven out of North Africa. I can't really see playing on into the Italian campaign in this game.

IMHO, the game should at least go up to the invasion of Sicily, and whether or not the Axis can evacuate the troops there. That should provide enough last-minute victory points to keep the game interesting.

[mogami]

Hi, The easiest Victory condition would be to decide just what each side had to accomplish and then award victory to the side that meets it's objectives or a draw after a certain date if both have failed.
Victory in the game is decided by this regardless of history.

Define the Axis objective in Africa 1940-1943
Define the Allied objective in Africa 1940-1943

If the Axis objective is simply to maintain a presence in Africa then the Allies need to throw them out to win. If the Allied objective is to protect the Suez canal and their links to other Allied areas then the Axis need to secure the canal.
Anything else would be a draw.
The Axis position becomes somewhat impossible after the American landings in Tunisia so I would say the Axis have until then to meet whatever objectives we assign.
I would set the campaign game to run from Italy's declaration of war to the US landing in Tunisia

[pasternakski]

A lot of the recent discussion in this thread seems to forget the role of scenarios.

I would like to see a full campaign game stretching from 1939 through 1944. There is no guarantee that, by 1944, the game situation will have boiled down to nothing but the Italian peninsula fighting. Spain may have gotten involved. Fighting may have heated up in Greece and the Balkans (which I think need to be included). Rommel may have succeeded in breaking out into the Middle East, and the campaign in North Africa continues. And so on.

I like the 1941-1943 idea as a scenario. There are myriad other possibilities.

I don't see anything here that presents a major design obstacle (although some of it, I am sure, will be quite challenging). Uncertain involvement of neutrals has apparently been handled successfully in WitP, as well as the mechanics of other-theater need for resources and reinforcements. Italy and being knocked out of the war? A simple matter of establishing criteria based on history.

Logistics? The heart of the UV system is logistics. Land operations and combat in southern Europe and northern Africa? WitP covers far larger masses, and UV created the basics. The desert war will need separate attention, of course, as neither UV nor WitP appear to me to address fluid, mobile warfare, yet this presents a worthwhile game design testing ground for those who would like to see the UV/WitP system adapted for simulation of WWII on the eastern front or western front or for the entire war in Europe (personally, if Matrix/2by3 undertake such a design, I would like to see it based on an entirely new game system. I just don't think the UV system can handle it).

So, I don't see much of anything in the way of just doing it.

[Becket]

I just can't see it extending into 1944 other than to simulate the invasion of Italy. You can certainly keep the Axis troops that were in Italy there and have them to play with -- but that (plus anything you've salvaged from North Africa) is all you'll have for the entire theater.

After mid-1943, the Germans did not have enough troops to man the defenses of Western Europe and Italy and do anything more than fight a defensive battle in the Soviet Union. They would not have extra troops to both defend the Gothic Line and hold North Africa.

I'm not saying that means the game always stops in 1943. Assuming you allowed the game to go into 44, I'd think you'd have to put in an Axis auto victory if the Axis forces hold significant territory in North Africa after the date of Rommel's departure -- allowing the game to continue at that point is pure speculation (if Hitler would consider stripping elements of II SS from the East Front to move to Italy, what would he consider stripping from North Africa to move to the East Front?). If the Allies have successfully driven the Axis out, then the game could continue on to Italy, but as you mention, it would need to have a substantial rewrite of the way land combat is handled because that would be the focus (I agree with you that such a re-write is probably necessary in order to simulate the land combat in N. Africa).

[pasternakski]

Well, okay, now we have to go into the greatest difficulty facing the game design (I didn't mention it, because I wanted to be so cheerful sounding), which is war status as it affects this particular theater.

Some mechanism has to be created that will factor in the situation as it stands on other fronts. This was not much of a problem in UV, where ship commitment pretty much simulated it. In WitP, the problem is a little more severe, but still, limited in scope.

In the Med, however, which was always a secondary theater, developments on the Western and Russian fronts had a profound effect on how much effort was to be devoted.

An example. Suppose that Sealion is launched in September 1941. Obviously, both sides will be so engaged that the suggested invasion of Malta and further offensive operations in North Africa will be curtailed or even suspended. The game has to constrain the theater commanders to resources realistically available should this eventuality play itself out.

There may have to be an entire "sub-game," largely hidden from the players, that dictates replacement and reinforcement rates, "points" of some kind available to support offensive operations, and so on. Each turn may have to begin with some kind of status screen telling you what is going on in the rest of the world and how it is affecting your ability to prosecute the war in your particular theater, telling you what is being delayed, provided, withdrawn, or permanently reassigned.

It reminds me of the scene from "Sink the Bismarck," where Capt. Shepard (good name choice, eh?) has just taken over as director of Admiralty operations. The Bismarck has just been spotted preparing to break out into the North Atlantic convoy zones. The First Sea Lord is bitterly complaining about how short of ships he is. A wireless message arrives, and Shepard reads it: "Situation on Crete is deteriorating. German airborne troops have captured Maleme Airfield.' FSL's reaction? "We never get our bad news in small doses."

[bradfordkay]

Some mechanism has to be created that will factor in the situation as it stands on other fronts.

That's exactly what I was getting at. Both sides brought units in and out of the area as needed, with the Royal Navy being the most guilty (for the lack of a better word) party. While UV gave us variations on a historical committment pattern, it never modelled the withdrawal of units for other theatres. Does WITP do so? I know that a few US ships served in both theatres (but don't recall the chronology at this point). A game which models the Med theatre only is going to have to address this situation in order to to have the "right feel" to me. Of course, I have faith that 2by3 can deliver...

[mbatch729]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Does WITP do so? I know that a few US ships served in both theatres (but don't recall the chronology at this point). A game which models the Med theatre only is going to have to address this situation in order to to have the "right feel" to me. Of course, I have faith that 2by3 can deliver...

Short answer, yes. Search for some threads on withdrawal. Basically forces you to withdraw units or pay a hefty price in prep points, which means you can't do anything with what you keep.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Yeah... the Med-Scenario...
from 1940-1943 (with hypothetical `44) sound well.

The problems would be the land war in africa... from the scale what hex-size would fit ? 30 miles, 20 miles...?

For land combat.. you need tons of different behaviour.... sheer numbers can´t count and you need rules to avoid a "stupid" alexandria-invasion or such things (because this could never be done by the axis)... also the huge problem nr.2 would be the italian fleet and the fuel supply.

In history, the italian big ones lay in harbour because of lack of oil, so it would be mostly a small italian/german unit war against the british fleet...

another question is, how to handle the french ? i mean, a more succsesfull german raid to the harbours had given em more french ships. THis was caused by the invasion in northwest africa. But if the allies invade earlier, should the germans conquer earlier the south of france? An what happens to ships used in the pacific conflict ?

If the germans kill all british and american carriers in the mediterian as soon as possible, do the brits withdraw other ships earlier to the med ?

For a land war in sicily and italy (could this happen earlier ? if you are as the german NO Rommel, it could be happen earlier, that africa is british, so why should one wait until mid 43 ?)

On the other hand, if the brits will be beaten in alexandria in mid 42 (because you invade malta..) does this end the game ? or shoud the axis try to conquer gibraltar ?

Generally a game i would by as soon as it is to buy , but to make it logical (and not to start a hurricane of protests about "how wrong this aproach is..") the game need a very early limitation list (what should be allowed, what prohibited (my opinion is, that a axis landing in palestine couldn´t work, the same with an early landing of allied troops in southern france (early means untill Mid44)... or you need a lot static troops there...

also how act with the political situation in northern africa ? the french/spanish/german/italian complex situation there.

To shorten it:
my wish list for it:
a raeder-plan for late40/early41
a early british concentration for the med (what is about creta/greece?)
a what-if with early american envolvment (they gave some battleships/carrier to the brits...)
a late scenario with more and great german radio controlled weapons...
a editor for complex scenarios


Go go go....

[PzB74]

I really look forward to see the schnell boote in action [:)]
Incredible fast and potent weapons, I just can't help admire the design.
Schnell boote



Swarms of them emerged from the morning mist, launched their lightening attack and disappeared as quickly as they had come. They were called the "Greyhound of the Sea". At the beginning of World War II the Friedrich Lürssen shipyard, Vegesack carried out successful pioneer work and developed a fast, seaworthy type of speedboat that was capable of top speed even in heavy seas, had brilliant manoeuvrability and was built until the end of the war without major modifications. These speedboats, also called S-Boats, generally proved their worth on escort and security missions, sea reconnaissance, mine warfare and in particular in combat against enemy submarines and surface units. They operated primarily off the Dutch and French coasts, along the English coast and in the Channel as well as in the North Sea and the Baltic and were also used in the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. The ultimate variant to be operational in significant numbers was the so-called S-Boat type S-100, which was produced from 1943 onwards and is reputed to be the best fast patrol boat of its time. The S-100 class was also called the "calotte", as it had a rounded armoured bridge made of welded segments (approx 10-12 mm armour plated steel) It was driven by 3 Daimler-Benz MB 511-V engines giving it an overall capacity of approx. 7500 hp and developing an outstanding speed of 43.5 knots (briefly accelerating to 48 knots).

[pasternakski]

Well, any number of vessels have been referred to as "greyhounds of the sea." The earliest I can think of were the American clipper ships in the 19th century. Destroyers in general have been called this, as well.

Hm. "Greyhound of the sea." Sounds like Charlie the Tuna dogstyle.

[Gecko]

Hi,

another question is, how to handle the french ?

That would only apply to French Naval forces in the Med, not somewhere else (Martinique, Dakar e.g.). Either it's an option like the IJN Sub Doctrine in UV (let the Vichy-French become part of the Axis or treat them historically and southern France becomes occupied by Germany as soon as US Forces are available to the Allied player. There need not to be a Morocco invasion - US Forces may be diverted to Alexandria e.g. as the Allied Player wants it.

If the germans kill all british and american carriers in the mediterian as soon as possible, do the brits withdraw other ships earlier to the med ?

Use the same method as in UV. That means that there is a kind of naval balance.
(Well - not really, Italian Naval Commanders would get a Leadership rating below 10 [8|] )

On the other hand, if the brits will be beaten in alexandria in mid 42 (because you invade malta..) does this end the game ? or shoud the axis try to conquer gibraltar ?

Use the same machanism as in UV. If Brisbane AND Noumea are conquered by the Japanese this will not end the game until 1st of January 1943. The Allies can't transfer any reinforcements to the theatre, but the game won't end automatically.
For UV-Med that could be Gibraltar and Alexandria. For the Axis it's more difficult...

a raeder-plan for late40/early41

Could you explain that to me?

a early british concentration for the med (what is about creta/greece?)

Give the allied player the same units his real life Generals had. So he will be confronted with the same decisions, i.e. put the same amount of troops at Alexandria and let the player decide if he wishes to conquer Crete/Greece to get a foothold on the continent or if he uses these troops in a comletely different way (invade somewhere else or use them in a defensive role or transfer them to a different base in the Med). "Let the player decide", I say. [:)] Don't bring in to many "When this happens, then automatically that happens". Don't build too many walls (Axis invasion of Palestine is forbidden). If the Axis player tries that and get's a bloody nose because he underestimated the enemy and overestimated his own capabilities - so what? It's a game? If we like to stick to history we shouldn't play at all. History has been written already.

a late scenario with more and great german radio controlled weapons...

Some Fritz-X and HS-293 should do the Job. [;)]

Nevertheless I would REALLY like - no I DEMAND - an option to upgrade my planes as I WANT. I hate that automatic upgrade in UV. I had plenty of P-39 and my precious P-40 Warhawks upgraded to P-38 [:@] Someone else may want to conserve some P-39 - they make good bargue killers.

Automatic things are for the FPS player - reload the weapon automatically when the last round has been fired. [:D]

bye, Gecko

[TIMJOT]

Use the same machanism as in UV. If Brisbane AND Noumea are conquered by the Japanese this will not end the game until 1st of January 1943. The Allies can't transfer any reinforcements to the theatre, but the game won't end automatically.
For UV-Med that could be Gibraltar and Alexandria. For the Axis it's more difficult...

How about Tripoli and Rome?

a raeder-plan for late40/early41


Could you explain that to me?

I believe he is refering to Raeder's "Plan Orient". Specifically his proposal in the summer of 1940, to concentrate the Axis forces in an offensive in the Med instead of Sealion or Barbarosa. Ultimate objective to knock Britain out of the war and put Germany in a superior stategic position to deal with the USSR.

It would be an interesting "what if" scenerio, challenging if not almost impossible one for the allied player to win. You wouldnt have to worry about unit withdrawls either.

[Gecko]

How about Tripoli and Rome?

Tripoli is too near to the frontline. Comparable to Lunga or PM in UV. I suggest Marseille and Rome.

It would be an interesting "what if" scenerio

Like scenario #19 in UV.

bye, Gecko

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Gecko

How about Tripoli and Rome?

Tripoli is too near to the frontline. Comparable to Lunga or PM in UV. I suggest Marseille and Rome.

Well, it depends on whose frontline you are refering to. Tripoli is no closer to the front than Alexandria in 1940. Also its the Combination of Tripoli/Rome. Getting one before 43 would be fairly easy getting both would not. IMHO, Marsielle is too insignificant.

[pasternakski]

I think that this game has to revolve around its historical degree of importance. The Med was never the primary theater in Europe, but it often held center stage. It was the place where England had to come to grips with Germany's ally, Italy, which had to be at least contained, if not defeated.

Loss of the Mediterranean to the Axis would have opened up many offensive possibilities to Hitler and Mussolini and freed significant forces for use elsewhere, to the detriment of those Allies fighting there. If, for example, the German paratroop doctrine had not been discredited (in German high command thinking) at Crete, think of the dynamic possibilities for their use on the Russian front or in an invasion of England.

Stalin was clamoring for a second front to be opened in late 1942 or early 1943. Western Allied forces were neither strong nor capable enough to attempt a landing from the Atlantic in France. Torch was the only answer the Allies had, leading to linkup with Monty and invasion of southern Italy.

The situation is fluid and uncertain. Developments in all other theaters of the war have to be factored in. This, as far as I'm concerned, is one of the best recommendations for doing the game.

The myriad paths the game can take have to be handled by a creative design of a complexity probably not undertaken before. As I mentioned in a previous post, there probably has to be a "subgame" playing in the background in order to generate the conditions within which the players will have to exist. Some abstract treatment of the western and eastern fronts and even consideration of what's going on in the Pacific will have to be included.

I see it this way. Let's say you are the Allies. At the beginning of the turn, as you are about to give your orders, a screen pops up that says something like this:

"Japanese offensive in Burma making significant progress. Indian reinforcements for 8th Army cancelled. All quiet on the Western Front. Additional air reinforcements available at Gibraltar. Germany declares war on Vichy France. Marseilles now an enemy base. Vichy naval forces scuttled."

And so on. I just think it has great potential.

By the way, those Indian reinforcements are dots, not feathers.

[bradfordkay]

Nevertheless I would REALLY like - no I DEMAND - an option to upgrade my planes as I WANT. I hate that automatic upgrade in UV. I had plenty of P-39 and my precious P-40 Warhawks upgraded to P-38 Someone else may want to conserve some P-39 - they make good bargue killers.

The one that always got me was the upgrade of the A24 Dauntless squadrons to A20s. I liked having those extra dive bombers...