[Just a discussion] A game that doesn't run on modern PCs shouldn't cost 80eur?

[Cannon_Jackal]

Yesterday I was happy to buy the discounted WITPAE for 18eur, but to my dismay I had to spend 2 hours finding technical workarounds for it to run on any of my PCs (yes, I found the dedicated post on this forum, and the dedicated section in the manual, and yet I had to keep adjusting the handles for it to work)

That would be fine, if the game was free, extracted from Internet Archive or something, but isn't the normal sale price of 80eur (which I was tempted to pay) a bit steep here? Even those 18eur (80%) is a bit much for a product that takes so much time to start

I appreciate the historical significance of WITPAE, and I do earnestly respect Gary Grigsby's hard work making it, but I also think that if Slitherine is still selling it (which is a very good thing), they should sort out the technical problems

All that said, I will happy very much happy to sit down and play it after work

[RangerJoe]

The price is not too high for what you get.

There are so many different computer setups now compared to when the game was made that it is difficult for a game designer to have all possible combinations covered in the installation package. But there is a utility made that does the setup for you.

It is not cheap compared to how long you will be playing it. It is a much better value at the regular price than games that are less expensive but cheap . . .

[Admiral DadMan]

What you don't seem to know is that we've been using these "technical workarounds" since the game came out in 2009.

You got it for €18 stop bitching and go play it.

[Cannon_Jackal]

The price is not too high for what you get.

There are so many different computer setups now compared to when the game was made that it is difficult for a game designer to have all possible combinations covered in the installation package. But there is a utility made that does the setup for you.

It is not cheap compared to how long you will be playing it. It is a much better value at the regular price than games that are less expensive but cheap . . .

I agree with you on all points, it's just that a computer game has also technical side and it would be polite & fair to fix it and present a working version, instead of forcing the customer to spend 2 hours on that

[Cannon_Jackal]

What you don't seem to know is that we've been using these "technical workarounds" since the game came out in 2009.

You got it for €18 stop bitching and go play it.

LOL sounds like it was unplayable from the get go

I would go play it but I have to fix it first

[Bo Rearguard]

LOL sounds like it was unplayable from the get go

It worked just fine straight out of the disc box when I first installed it in 2010. It was a few months later before I started implementing the "switches" that were mentioned in the game updates. However, as the years passed a lot of new features were added. Better fonts, better screen support, etc. And, of course Windows and computer set-ups changed a lot in those years. It would be nice if it was as simple an install as it once was. But all the changes and feature updates done since is by volunteer work alone and there is only so much they can do to keep every aspect of the game current with modern operating systems.

[RangerJoe]

LOL sounds like it was unplayable from the get go

It worked just fine straight out of the disc box when I first installed it in 2010. It was a few months later before I started implementing the "switches" that were mentioned in the game updates. However, as the years passed a lot of new features were added. Better fonts, better screen support, etc. And, of course Windows and computer set-ups changed a lot in those years. It would be nice if it was as simple an install as it once was. But all the changes and feature updates done since is by volunteer work alone and there is only so much they can do to keep every aspect of the game current with modern operating systems.

That is so true. If I remember correctly the version of Windows at the time was XP . . .

No one has ever paid for any of the updates either, so the regular price is inexpensive for what a person receives.

[Cannon_Jackal]

LOL sounds like it was unplayable from the get go

It worked just fine straight out of the disc box when I first installed it in 2010. It was a few months later before I started implementing the "switches" that were mentioned in the game updates. However, as the years passed a lot of new features were added. Better fonts, better screen support, etc. And, of course Windows and computer set-ups changed a lot in those years. It would be nice if it was as simple an install as it once was. But all the changes and feature updates done since is by volunteer work alone and there is only so much they can do to keep every aspect of the game current with modern operating systems.

Thank you for telling the history! And especially huge thanks to those dedicated people who tried to keep the game up to date! Thanks to them, we can play WITPAE even today. That said, I know quite a few truly old games that are being actively supported even to this day (maybe the most notable example in this context - WDS, though there are other wargames like this as well)

[Bo Rearguard]

WitP/AE is basically a heavily updated expansion pack of Gary Grigsby's 2004 War in the Pacific done mostly independently of Grigsby's 2by3 games. That means the game's underlying architecture is probably well over 20 years old. Probably closer to 25 given work on Uncommon Valor was started then. I'm no expert on aging software but I know with a few exceptions most games I had back then don't run easily anymore even if I can dig up an optical drive. But then most of them aren't being sold or supported anymore.

[pbiggar]

The short answer to your statement "A game that doesn't run on modern PCs shouldn't cost 80eur?" is I agree, but this is not your typical game purchase.

The longer answer is, despite the barriers to easily start playing with switches and patches to install, it is still a bargain at 80EUR if this is your style of game. Glad to see you got it at a discount.

This game is for a very niche market, but it does the big things very well and so a very dedicated base of players still play this game unlike 99.9% of games released in the same year. It also comes with an active and supportive forum group to help you with the steep learning curve you are about to embark on.

Years from now you may look back at this as one of the great bargains you received!

[Cannon_Jackal]

The short answer to your statement "A game that doesn't run on modern PCs shouldn't cost 80eur?" is I agree, but this is not your typical game purchase.

The longer answer is, despite the barriers to easily start playing with switches and patches to install, it is still a bargain at 80EUR if this is your style of game. Glad to see you got it at a discount.

This game is for a very niche market, but it does the big things very well and so a very dedicated base of players still play this game unlike 99.9% of games released in the same year. It also comes with an active and supportive forum group to help you with the steep learning curve you are about to embark on.

Years from now you may look back at this as one of the great bargains you received!

Funny thing is that I really like your comment and agree with the most of it - but not everything I am not arguing about monetary value, that's irrelevant - just as you wrote. But the game community is still active because there is nothing like this about one of the biggest and most complex theatres of war - the Pacific War. But that's why I am surprised that the devs stopped supporting the game (unlike some other devs of wargames that are being updated for decades now)

Then again, if to come back to money/value/content, one could buy Ian W. Toll's "The Pacific War Trilogy" for that amount of money - I am reading it right now, and it's one of the best books not only on the Pacific War, but also probably the best history book I have ever read in my life.

Anyway, I am earnestly happy that game exists, that it is accessible thanks to the community. And yet still the publisher is "a pig" - rewriting the C++ code is a one-guy work that could be done in one month (no one is asking to update the database or anything). And I am not hallucinating here - I know this from other legacy titles. So, whatever the price, it would just good ethics to keep the core engine relevant

[rsallen64]

As mentioned, there is an app, on this forum I believe, that will handle most of the "switches" for you and get it running properly without a hiccup. Then, consider this when looking at the price: I usually spend about 1 hour planning, executing, and running each turn once the game gets going after the initial setup. If each turn is one day of real time, that's 365 hours on average to play a full year in the game, which will only take you to December 7, 1942. That equates to about $.21 an hour, if my math is correct, for JUST one year of turns in game. And no two games are EVER the same, meaning there is unlimited replayability.

Do you think $.21/hour is worth the investment for a game experience you can't get anywhere else? Apparently, a lot of us do, because speaking just for me, I've been tinkering with this on and off for 16 years.

Just my $.02.

[RangerJoe]

Yes, that is Seabee and it is on the Tech Support forum.

https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopic.php?t=320302

[LargeSlowTarget]

I play the game almost daily since its release day in 2009, with numerous installs over time on at least five different computers using Windows Vista, 7, 8, 10 and now 11 on a gaming laptop. Never had a problem running it "out of the box". Maybe I have been incredibly lucky, but the generalization "doesn't run on modern PCs" seems a bit harsh. In any case, the best bang for the buck I have ever encountered since I fell under the spell of video gaming in the mid-1980s. Worth every cent.

[Chris21wen]

I play the game almost daily since its release day in 2009, with numerous installs over time on at least five different computers using Windows Vista, 7, 8, 10 and now 11 on a gaming laptop. Never had a problem running it "out of the box". Maybe I have been incredibly lucky, but the generalization "doesn't run on modern PCs" seems a bit harsh. In any case, the best bang for the buck I have ever encountered since I fell under the spell of video gaming in the mid-1980s. Worth every cent.

I concur. The only problem I've ever had is playing in a window or tabbing out to do something else but running full screen has never been a problem. For me the switches cured that, first with fixed resolutions then variable ones. Now, and for some considerable time past I've not had any problems and I might add I've been using the exact same switches. OK it might take a bit of effort for the non-tech minded but there is an app.

[Nazcatraz]

Gary and the team deserve any money we can give them. So it's a good thing we are able to give them more, not less.

[Moltrey]

The regular price is a bit high perhaps, but it hasn't gone up if memory serves, just stayed the same. Being that it goes on sale a least twice if not more per year there are enough chances to swoop in and get it cheap.
Regarding getting it running, the last big round of 2by3 tune-ups and switches plus larger resolutions made it a lot easier to tweak it to your specific monitor setup.
As others mentioned, I find it the absolutely closest thing to stepping into either side as Admiral there is. The proof is in the community that still dwarfs the other games on the forums in threads and posts.
Persistence and perseverance are absolutely required with WITP:AE. The learning curve is steep and long, but it is worth it if you are pretty obsessed with the Pacific War.
Personally, my Pop was an AO2 with fighter-bomber 16 (VBF-16) on the Randolph, so I have always been tied to the war.
Good luck!

[Tanaka]

It goes on sale for like $16 several times a year. No brainer.

[Sardaukar]

And there is this community.

[RangerJoe]

And there is this community.

Which is probably the best part not only because of any help that is requested for and answers received, but also the friendship.