Invasion of Poland and France (and general axis warplan)

[B1GB0M]

I know this is probably a dumb question, but I'm struggling with pacing in my invasions of Poland and France. These have all been games against the standard AI.

I see that Poland should ideally fall in 2 turns, but I'm usually taking 3-4 to close them out. Similarly, I'm getting bogged down around Paris and when I take it, the French capital moves to Bordeaux. This means France is usually not done until Oct.- Nov. '40 (after starting invasion May '40).

I have been finding some success in North Africa by sending two Italian commanders, two infantry armies, one tank division, and a pair of ground attack and fighter to bolster the attack on Egypt. I'm usually able to get to put significant pressure on El Alamein (sometimes taking it outright) by the time the DAK comes to finish the job. My plan so far has been to invest heavily into Yugoslavia diplomacy to get them into the Axis peacefully, freeing up those Italian units for NA.

My question is two fold:

1. What is the proper timeline/strategy for Fall Weiss/Gelb?
2. Does the general plan of (1) invest into Yugo diplomacy, (2) move most of the Italian forces to push into NA, (3) finish the job with DAK in early '41 make sense? Or will this negatively impact future operations?

Any other tips would great! I've read the manual, but I'm having some trouble tying all the mechanics together into a cohesive strategy.

[Taxman66]

Buy an HQ early to help with France.

After Poland falls I also suggest replacing (use the stack/replace with option via right click) one of the weaker hqs or one that gets a pip of experience with Manstein.

HQs are the most important units in the game and are strong force multipliers.

Pay attention to which units are attached to which HQs. Make sure units that will be attacking or being positioned in front of damaged units are attached.

Build and use the medium bombers to de-entrench (or reduce entrenchment at least) before attacking with ground units and Tactical bombers.

3 turns for Poland is OK, the key is to try and minimize the damage you take.

Cut off and kill straggling French units before or on the turn you take Paris. It lowers French morale and reduces the chance they'll continue to fight.

[B1GB0M]

Very useful tips taxman, thank you! I'll try adding an extra HQ and replacing one with Manstein and see if I can squeeze out an extra med bomber for the France invasion.

If I could ask another question, what research is generally recommended first for Germany? I've been taking chits off of anti-tank and rocketry, putting double chits into industry, and focusing on U-boat and infantry weapons/tanks. It seems to pay dividends later in Barbarossa and the Atlantic, but I'm not sure if I would be better off speccing into something else.

[Taxman66]

I've moved on to a mod that significantly alters the game and handles research choices differently, so I'm not sure I can offer much advice.

Having said that, in the base game getting to ground attack 2 allows the TAC bombers to de-entrench. Also Spying and Intelligence is more important than you would think, particularly if you get ahead of your opponents (or fall behind). The other economic tech is good, but I wouldn't double chit it. I also like the command tech. It makes your HQs better in multiple ways (and in the base game it allows you to build more of them iirc). One of the key ways it helps is increases the number of units you can control. Have enough HQs and that is like getting an extra HQ for cheap. Add on the fact that it increases their range, AP (i.e. movement) and improves their value and its just so good.

[B1GB0M]

Very helpful. I was definitely neglecting command and S&I. I'll try adding those into my initial research investments.

[klschult]

Getting Poland to fall in two turns is very difficult and depends a lot on luck. Even when I cheat horribly, its hard to take Warsaw on turn 2.

The best way to get Poland is, as much as possible, to ignore anything not directly in the path to Warsaw. Leave bypassed units guarding cities you don't care about. Clear the roads through Torun and Lodz, then attack Warsaw until it falls.

The TRICK to taking France is to surround Paris but send armor to take Bordeaux before the AI garrisons it. Then take Paris. Emphasis on "trick."
Figure 3 turns to take Poland,
3-4 turns to prep for France
Minimum for France to fall is 5 more turns,
Turn 1 Belgium
Turn 2 Battle on the frontier
3 turns to get armor to Bordeaux
Figure 7 or 8 turns if you don't want to cheat and aren't horribly lucky.
So that's 15 turns. I have no idea what month that makes it.

I play differently so what I know about research may not apply. The only research I do before France Falls is to recover money from Research I don't care about and buy two Amphibious points. I get one upgrade and use it for a German unit and the Slovakian Corps to take Edinburgh and Manchester. Then all the air, two Airborne and a few regular Amphibious to take London. Pretty much only works against the AI. Kill all the Navy outside the Med first and there's a decent chance UK will surrender. If not, you can always turn off the "move capital" option. If it capital moves to Egypt, you can take it. If it moves to Canada, you won't take it until the US falls, by which time it won't matter.

In general, I don't build new units until the build up for Bagration.

For Research:
German Turn 1:
Anti-tank -1
Artillery Weapons -1
Rocket Weapons -1
Amphibious +2

Later, in no particular order:
Infantry +2
Advance Tanks +5
Naval Warfare (I like to invade the US) +1
Long Range Air +5
Ground Attack +2
Fighters +3
Command and Control +1
Logistics +5 (to get the HQ)

Italy Turn 1:
Infantry Warfare as soon as possible.

Later:
Infantry +2
Naval Warfare +1
Infantry Warfare +1
Aerial Warfare +1
Naval Warfare +1
Amphip +5 - If I plan to invade the US

Later
Armored Warfare
Long Range AC
Ground Attack
Mobility

I don't retire any HQ as I want as many as possible for the attack on Russia. After guarding the Maginot line you only have about 25 land units available. With 3 HQ, 18 of those can be in command. Those not in command are still in supply. So I don't build any more HQ until the build up for Russia. Then again, I never figured out how to optimize my HQ units. (And hand setting command to units each turn is too much of bother for me.)

[klschult]

BTW, to take France use the Airborne to take Besancon and ground units to take Nancy or the AI will pull all the Maginot line units out and use them someplace you'd rather they not be. You can use about 6 corps to keep 4 French armies and 2-4 corps out of the fight.

And, if you kill the BEF while it's in supply, the AI will rebuild it and it will be in the way when you attack the UK. So don't kill them until they are out of supply.

Italy doesn't need to attack France.
Take the fleet through Gibraltar to help take out the British Fleet. Although using air is cheaper.
Send the HQ and a few units to Africa.
Add the AF to the attack on London.

Then I get a corps set up to take Vichy, usually by slipping it around Nancy so it is ejected from Vichy and sent to German Occupied France. I then attack Vichy two turns after the Fall of France. Italy really needs the production points. Given the diplomatic cost you may not want to, but if the UK falls, and the German Italian fleets are combined, US isn't much of a threat.

[klschult]

I rarely put diplomatic effort into Yugoslavia.

Spain and Turkey, with the bonuses you get from clearing the UK and NA, are great Diplomatic Opportunities.
Spain provides a great force bonus.
Turkey provides an excellent force bonus, and a back door to Russia.

And both add 5 Long Range Amphibious units, more transports, plus a few naval and air forces, for an eventual attack on the US.

You get some nice forces from Sweden too, but Sweden is harder to get and rarely activated before the forces can actually make a difference.

[klschult]

Poland in two turns.

Must:
Kill Wolynska Cavalry Bde, use the two corps.
Reduce the Lodz Army below 5, use the army and corps nearby.
Advance the Armor to attack the Prusy Army.
You can use the Tac Bomber on any of those. Use on the one you think you'll be unluckiest on the rest of the attacks. (You can try it if one pt is left on the Cav Bde, you shouldn't need it on the Army, then, if unused, on the Prusy Army.)

Kill Pomorze Army, use Med bomber, army, and 2 corps (in that order), third corps if necessary.
Advance all along the road with the armor to Torun

Corps in Marienburg to Kutno

If you don't accomplish these, I don't think you can do it.

Use the two armies to kill the Mech unit in Krakow
Surround the Army in Gorlice.
Damage the Army in Mlawa fortification by attacking from the west.
If not, these units will likely move to Warsaw defense.
Try to cut off the Krakow army and Krakowska Cav Bde. (Which requires the mech unit in Krakow to be dead.

This should leave you with all three air, 2 Armor, 2 or 3 corps and the East Prussia Army within range to attack Warsaw and the defenders.

So, not impossible to do it in two turns, but you need some luck.

[B1GB0M]

Amazing tips everyone. Managed to take France in just 6 turns (closed off a large northern pocket, so it might have just been lucky) and I'm regularly getting Poland in 3 turns. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions when I fall flat on my face trying to invade the Soviets.

Also, is it generally a good idea to go for Sea Lion and (I assume) a delayed '42 Barbarossa? Or just focus on NA and the Atlantic, while aiming for a historical '41 Barb? It's something I'm debating now as I move forward in my game

[Taxman66]

You should get to the point where either strategy is easy. Then too easy, so you up the difficulty. After that it's multiplayer... things you can do vs. the ai (like pull Spain in regularly) won't fly. If you don't like the 'unrealistic' moves you will encounter (and need to use) in mp, then look into the trp mod ( both sp and mp). But be warned that it plays like a different game on the base engine.

[klschult]

For difficulty, set your winning conditions as control of every hex on the map.
Or keep Russia out of the game until you're ready, then try to take it in 10 turns.
Or learn the AI well enough to find the earliest you can take out the US.

I just did a play through on standard rules.
Took Poland on turn 2, again there is a fair amount of luck involved. Some bad die rolls and its not going to happen.
Reinforced and redeployed for 3 turns.
Attacked the Low Countries on turn 6, Dec 8, and took Lux and Belgium that turn.
Netherlands surrendered the next turn, 7,
France surrendered on May 6, 6th turn after attacking Belgium.
I can get London/Manchester/Edinburgh on Aug 18, 6 turns more, but National Morale is at 67 and there are still a lot of Br units around and they just move the capital to Toronto.

I've got some ideas on getting Br Morale and units down lower so I'm going back to the fall of France and see what I can do.

[klschult]

UK Fell after the August 8 turn with long range amphibious landings in Manchester and Edinburgh and air attacks and parachute landings to take London.

The manual says a major country will not surrender with probability = 3%*number of units in the "home country."

There were 7 units in Great Britain and 1 in Northern Ireland. There were enough naval units and units in Egypt to confirm that those don't matter. Eight units, times 3 = 24% probability of not surrendering. That would mean Britain surrenders 76% of the time.

If the units in Gibraltar and Malta count as "Home Country", the Britain will surrender 70% of the time.

Britain fell 7 out of 10 times, so 70%. It would appear that Gibraltar and Malta count as "Home Country", although the sample size is still small.

[klschult]

Got a clarification. When you hover over a space, if it says "(UK)", as in "Clear (UK)" in the upper left corner of the pop-up box, then its UK Home Territory.

So Gibraltar, Malta AND Cyprus are UK Home Territory.

If you eliminate all units on the island of Great Britain then there are still 4 garrisons left, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, Malta and Cyprus, and the probability of surrender would be 100-(4x3)= 88%

[EvanJones]

Only two turns to take Poland with minimal loss. On Expert Level. (Easier on lesser difficulty.)

1.) XXI Corps: 2 South, 1 Southwest. Attack (2/1 and hope you get the 1.)
2.) 3rd Army: Attack (2/3). If you reduce Modlin Army to 4 or less, skip to step 4.
3.) Curse and swear and use air to reduce Modlin Army to 4. Do only if unavoidable, it costs you air.
4.) Wodrig Corps: IN ONE MOVE, go to one hex north of Warsaw. It will be ambushed for 1 point dmg. (Hooray!)
5.) II xxx: 2 Northeast, no attack (yet). This keeps Pomorze from retreating in the wrong direction.
6.) 4 xxxx: Attack Pomorze xxxx. advance adjacent if it retreats. This will reduce it to less than 5.
7.) 3 PzA moves 5 Southeast. ALL 5, NO DIVERSION!
8.) II xxx: Attack Cavalry, advance or not (but keep Danzig in mind).
9:) 1 Frontier xxx: Move to attack Cavalry (which may have retreated).
10.) 8 xxxx: Attack (1/4). DO NOT commit any air for any reason until next turn! (Unless you like taking a needless ~50 MPP in damage you'll have to fix befor you invade France).
11.) 4 PzA: Attack Cavalry twice. If it retreats, advance/Attack. Then move around the southern flank. DO NOT end your turn next to Chestochowa! You wan to capture those mines INTACT.
12.) X Corps moves around the northern flank to cut off survivors.
13.) IV Corps attacks Cavalry.
14.) If Cav. does not retreat. XIII xxx: Move, attack Cav.
15.) If cav. retreats: X Army move 2 hexes Northeast one hex at a time and attack Cav. from the South.
16.) All units south forcemarch towards France (one will have normal march only). This plan includes getting the entire German army over to France without operating, including HQs.
17.) Garrison: Forcemarch south to distract or else cover Danzig just in case.
18.) I Corps: Either forcemarch around to north or south for cover, or even just send it towards France.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TURN 2.

1.) 3PzA: Move 5 SE. First Attack: Air unit (0/5). Make sure it's attached to Kuchler. (Even if you don't kill it, it can't intercept.)
2.) Hit Warsaw with All bombers, medium, first. A hit is nice, but this it to demoralize, disrupt, detrench, not kill.
3.) 3PzA: Second Attack: Warsaw (0/2)
4.) Wodrig xxx: Attacks Warsaw. (0/2). Advance in if cleared, move 1 hex NE if not.
5.) XXI xxx moves in and attacks (0/2) and takes Warsaw.

As for the rest, concentrate on Cav. when possible, finish off the badly damaged infantry you attacked in turn 1. Number of units killed counts towards surrender, not quality. And DO NOT ENTER, PASS THROUGH, or even remain adjacent to that mine with more than one infantry. DO NOT enter or pass through cities whenever possible so as not to destroy their value!

This should get you out of it with Polish economy intact and with around 200 MPP of losses, sometimes less (unless you were forced to commit air on turn 1).

[EvanJones]

I know this is probably a dumb question, but I'm struggling with pacing in my invasions of Poland and France. These have all been games against the standard AI.

I see that Poland should ideally fall in 2 turns, but I'm usually taking 3-4 to close them out. Similarly, I'm getting bogged down around Paris and when I take it, the French capital moves to Bordeaux. This means France is usually not done until Oct.- Nov. '40 (after starting invasion May '40).

I have been finding some success in North Africa by sending two Italian commanders, two infantry armies, one tank division, and a pair of ground attack and fighter to bolster the attack on Egypt. I'm usually able to get to put significant pressure on El Alamein (sometimes taking it outright) by the time the DAK comes to finish the job. My plan so far has been to invest heavily into Yugoslavia diplomacy to get them into the Axis peacefully, freeing up those Italian units for NA.

My question is two fold:

1. What is the proper timeline/strategy for Fall Weiss/Gelb?
2. Does the general plan of (1) invest into Yugo diplomacy, (2) move most of the Italian forces to push into NA, (3) finish the job with DAK in early '41 make sense? Or will this negatively impact future operations?

Any other tips would great! I've read the manual, but I'm having some trouble tying all the mechanics together into a cohesive strategy.

You should be able to take Poland in two turns over 9 times out of ten, using the method posted immediately above.

You want to forcemarch your army across to France ASAP. But make sure you allow for full moves for your HQs -- don't traffic jam them. And bear in mind that it often takes a turn to repair and a turn to upgrade a unit. That's better done after they arrive at their deployment hex so they have time to recover/improve. I will pull 3 corps out of the west wall, a checkerboard effect, more than sufficient. And you'll have much use for those corps.

There are the gradualist attacks on France starting early, but I prefer an invasion of Luxemburg on 2/10/40 (swat at the "hump" optional), and the full deal the first March turn. You can (and need to) take Brussels in one turn (even in mud/rain/fog). Netherlands will take at least two, but it's not as important so far as speed goes. I'll do a drop in April with 2 paras to cut off 10 units in/near the Maginot lines so they can't operate out to defend Paris. Paris should fall by the end of May. On expert level, you don't want to be running to Bordeaux. If you have taken the central cities you have surrounded and maybe own the cities up to Calais, France may fall June 19, and I have never seen it last past July 7. I could make it more detailed if anyone is interested.


Interested in a naval strategy (not for Sealion, but a full Barbarossa) that will nonetheless chip away at British morale, preserve your force AND screen against invasion?

I never go for Yugo Diplomacy. Spain first priority. Then if Finland wins the Winter War (rarely, but possible), you need to swing Finland back to positive numbers (no need for more than that), and you'll start Barbarossa with a good advantage. If not, put your efforts into Turkey. Not only do you get the MPPs, but Spain allows you to completely block off Torch and Turkey is enormously useful in drawing off the Sovs, and has a real tank unit to build, as well. You should have both before the Americans get in the war.

[klschult]

"Interested in a naval strategy (not for Sealion, but a full Barbarossa) that will nonetheless chip away at British morale, preserve your force AND screen against invasion?"

Against the AI.

Start early.
1. Expose the subs so the DDs come down near Kiel, then kill them with your surface fleet and return to port.
2. Expose a DD right at the entrance to Kiel. This brings out the BB in London. Kill it with subs.
3. Try to bring the Carrier south so you can kill it too.
4. If you kill all, or most of the DDs, send the subs north.

To kill the rest of the BR fleet.
1. Put the entire AF on the channel.
2. Kill the BR air.
3. Bring all the subs near the channel.
4. Bring the Italian BBs through Gibraltar.
5. Put one (two?) units into amphip mode.
6. This will bring the entire BR Atlantic fleet down to the channel.
7. Use the air on the fleet.
8. Then the subs on BB.
9. Finish them off with the rest of the fleet.

Killing all those expensive units will do a number on BR morale.

[klschult]

For Sealion, against the AI.
1. Invest in Amphip 2 pts on turn one.
2. Long range amphip on Edinburgh and Manchester. (German and Slovakian corps)
3. Bring up the Italian AF.
4. Air, airborne and, if possible, short amphip, on London.
5. London will often fall on the second turn of air pounding.
6. If not, then almost always on the third.
7. If they put an Air Defense unit next to London, use fighters to run it out of ammo, then bomb London.

[klschult]

I walk most of the corps and air across Fr, but I Operate the Armies, HQ and Armor.

I find every turn I can save attacking France really helps to bring them down quickly.

[nnason]

I am guessing everyone's use of diplo on Turkey and Spain is based on an Allied AI. A human player will note the Axis use of Diplo and will counter. So better to do diplo, which gets countered, or use for Tech?

And I always do some defense of London. Can it be taken, possibly but it will be expensive.

Thoughts?