Never Thought I'd Start Another One - tc464 (A) vs. Mike (J)

[Seacat54]

At least it will limit it to 6 factories + engine bonus.

This will only be "half-baked". Let me try though.

I don't see the issue with IJ and its RnD being the biggest issue. The biggest to me is that it can ramp up AC production far faster than realistically possible. If you look at US performance in this area during WWII, getting an aircraft into production once the design was complete (RnD complete) took months. In the game its instantaneous. Then, the ramp up first a big step up and then goes linear, in reality it is exponential with a SMALL exponent.

Right now, the way I rationalize the game to reality is by saying: RnD encompasses not only the Design of the plane, but also the production tooling and assembly line setup. Thus when RnD in game is complete this equates to production start in reality. OK.

So, to get this more aligned, the RnD repair factor in the code needs to be adjusted DOWN ... slow the RnD factory repair some more. How much? my best guess: about 25%. Decrease the probability of an RnD factory repair by about 25%, that will slow the development down significantly, bring it into reality far better.

Let's look at the IJ, the reality of IJ aircraft development.

The IJ had some fantastic aircraft developers. Jiro Horikoshi and Kiro Honsho are just 2 examples. World class. Put them up there with anyone. Willy Messerschmitt, Kurt Tank, R. J. Mitchell; sure; and Jiro and Hiro are right with them. So, they didn't lack designers. 1941, IJ still cannot build a 2 stage induction system. The game allows the Ki-49 Helen to be built in the game in unlimited numbers, it is far and away the best IJA bomber. Why was Ki-21 Sally built until war end and in 10x volume? The Ha-34 engine in the Helen required a 2 stage induction system that rarely ever worked. They blew up. Without it, the Helen could barely take-off, it was what is known as a "hangar queen". Ki-94? Great looking plane never getting into production because 2 stage induction couldn't be done. A7M? first flight was in early (March?) 1942. Flew great, except grossly underpowered because the engine was still a single stage, multi-speed blower that couldn't deliver. Didn't see one in the war until 1945 when the 2 stage blowers were finally starting to be working some of the time.

Now, the why of the 2 stage induction is a VERY long story. Moot, because it happened. What is relevant is that it caused the developers to "waste" all of their time working on projects with little (very small) incremental improvement. Let's use the A6M as the exemplar. The A6M in all of its version remains a 350mph plane. Period. Whether built in 1939 or 1944, it is still a 350 mph plane, which by early 1943 was too slow. Some players get all worked up about facing the A6M8 in 1942. I don't see why or how. Sandbox it. P39 .vs. any version of the A6M. Equivalent pilots. They are a match. Is the A6M8 better than the A6M2? Sure, marginally. In the sandbox, maybe 15% more pilots survive, maybe 5% more wins. Still basically a 50-50 fight. The P-39 ruggedness and armament negates the A6M MVR. Forget the date that the plane appeared in the war, it is a 1939 design. It is a plane that both the P39 and P40 are well able to compete against. Neither of those planes were used in Europe for a good reason: they were not competitive against the Me and FW designs. They were flown in the Pacific because they were competitive against the A6M and the Oscar. It was the Frank that caused them a lot of issue, but that wasn't until 1944.

In other words, the devs got it right in my mind. Advancing the A6M family; just a little sauce for the IJ players. Little impact on the allied player.

So, to summarize. Major issue is the ability to move from RnD right to HUGE production. Without a major re-write of the code, the best fix is simply to decrease the repair probability of an individual RnD factory. My best guess is about a 25% decrease (yes, that is a LOT). The intent would be that the IJ could still advance a plane, but it would take "National Will" (think the Man to the Moon project of the 60's or the Manhattan Project), and then only allow for ONE model to get advanced IF you chose to put all of your RnD on it. Yeah, it would basically remove the RnD aspect from the game entirely, but it is unbalanced the way it is. I would also suggest that if this done, that the variable be exported to the .ini file so that modders could use it.

Those official code changes are unlikely to happen so what would be the best house ruled model you would recommend?

Would 3 factories + engine bonus start slowing the ramp-up enough?

[PaxMondo]

What would a house rule limiting research to 6 factories per ac do?

To answer you more directly, as opposed to my long discourse, 6 RnD may still be too much. It isn't so much about the "when" but the "how much" at the end of the RnD. 6x30 means that every 6 days a group can get the upgraded AC right away. In the first month, 4 (36 plane, a typical size) groups can be deployed. That's a lot. Maybe too much.

The biggest reason I advocate for an IJ player to do 15x or 18x RnD on the A7M isn't so much when you get, but that you can build 18 planes/day once you have it. That means a group every other day, ~15 groups in the first month. That's where the impact comes in. The fast upgrade of ALL of your fighter groups. This is the ahistorical aspect. Very hard to rationalize this one. Getting the A7M in '44? sure, all they needed was a 2 stage blower to work. Going from 0 planes/day to 18 planes/day overnight? Yeah, that takes a fair amount of reality bending on my part ...

Would need to do testing on this to figure out the best house rule. I don't play PBEM, and that's where the testing needs to be done. Need to ask the active, good players about this. 3 might be too small, 6? maybe too big? Just not sure. You need to see the impact upon the games to know, and this is a PBEM house rule, so it needs to be PBEM players ....

[RangerJoe]

Great analysis Pax. But the developers wanted a game where the Japanese could give the Allies a good fight and they had to have a lot of aircraft to do that. So it is ahistorical by design.

I am sure you are correct. I'm not a dev, but I KNOW that a lot of time was given to game balance and that initially the IJ was not competitive at all. They had to give a lot of "Easter Eggs" to the IJ to have a game of it. That list (Easter Eggs) is long ...

+1

But one way to cut back on the super fast aircraft R&D would be to have HRs where each airframe in an upgrade path must have its research completed prior to the next airframe's research completed. A player could have the Judy 1, 2, and 3 researching at the same time but they must be completed in sequence. The upgrade paths could also be adjusted. For example, the A6M2 Rufe could upgrade to the A6M3 and not the A6M5. The Frank A could upgrade to the Frank B which would upgrade to the Frank R.

Combine that with:
Reduce the number of R&D factories!

If the Japanese player does not want that, adjust the Allied reinforcement pools and the timing of their aircraft coming into the theater.

If there can be no agreement, there does not have to be a game between the players.

[PaxMondo]

But one way to cut back on the super fast aircraft R&D would be to have HRs where each airframe in an upgrade path must have its research completed prior to the next airframe's research completed. A player could have the Judy 1, 2, and 3 researching at the same time but they must be completed in sequence. The upgrade paths could also be adjusted. For example, the A6M2 Rufe could upgrade to the A6M3 and not the A6M5. The Frank A could upgrade to the Frank B which would upgrade to the Frank R.

Combine that with:
Reduce the number of R&D factories!

If the Japanese player does not want that, adjust the Allied reinforcement pools and the timing of their aircraft coming into the theater.

If there can be no agreement, there does not have to be a game between the players.

For Scen 1 stock game, if the A6M, B6N, and D4Y are the issues, sure, limiting progression would work. Easy HR to implement. The N1K arriving 1/43, Ki-84 arriving 6/43, or the A7M arriving 2/44 are far more important and far more disrupting for the allies. For those, yeah, you have to limit how many factories are allowed to RnD on a given model. And as discussed with seacat above, not sure what the limit should be. More than 3, less than 12 is all I can say now. PBEM players with experience need to weigh in on this one .... which I am not, so ....

[Seacat54]

Can you give a situation report on China?

[Mike Solli]

Can you give a situation report on China?

I'm 3 days behind in posting. Here's the map of China from 5 Jan 42. I'll try to give more info on China. It's a pain in the ass to organize and collect the armies.

North China

N China.png (1.78 MiB) Viewed 376 times

South China

S China.png (1.67 MiB) Viewed 376 times

[PaxMondo]

I'm 3 days behind in posting. Here's the map of China from 5 Jan 42. I'll try to give more info on China. It's a pain in the ass to organize and collect the armies.

Mike,

Stop sugar-coating it! He'll start thinking it's so easy!

[RangerJoe]

I'm 3 days behind in posting. Here's the map of China from 5 Jan 42. I'll try to give more info on China. It's a pain in the ass to organize and collect the armies.

Mike,

Stop sugar-coating it! He'll start thinking it's so easy!

That base 2 hexes away from Sian in the mountain rough is a great place to paradrop on when you are going to take Nanyang, if not sooner. Fly in some engineers and air support . . .

Then get a fast unit moving onto the yellow road past that to start blocking fuel from getting to Chungking and Chengtu.

Once you move into Wenchow, it is a good idea to have a fast transport TF dropping off supplies while also bombarding the enemy land units. It will force a counter bombardment as well. In the meantime, if you bomb the port you might catch damaged submarines but even more importantly, slowing down the fort building while also possibly destroying some fuel.

[Mike Solli]

3 Jan 42

Sub War

Nothing to report.

5 Fleet

My little obsolete TF of 2 CL and 4 DD is just SW of Adak. Right next door I see what is allegedly a ML. We'll see what happens tomorrow

4 Fleet

The invasion fleet is 3 days (18 hexes) SW of Johnston Island with KB half a dozen hexes north of them. We're getting close.

SE Fleet

I haven't pulled the trigger on the Rabaul invasion yet. I'm worried about some enemy surface ships (including Repulse & PoW) that may be lurking about to destroy the invasion fleet. My subs have seen a couple of US 4 stackers a while ago in the vicinity of Townsville. Anything could be down there. I'm going to wait until KB is done with Johnston Island and heads back to the SE Fleet area.

SRA

Malaya

Still 2 stacks of speed bumps to destroy. Not quite there yet.

Another Buffalo materialized over Singapore and was easily dispatched by the sweeping Zeros.

Air bombardment of Singapore continues. Airfield damage is slowly increasing and is at 9 today.

Philippines

The bombardment by air and artillery of Clark Field continues. I just noticed that the airfield damage of Bataan is gone, so I reallocated some bombers to airfield duty there. Can't have Bataan build up its fort level.

Mindanao

Butuan was liberated today destroying the 6 remnant units there. I now control all of the bases here. There are only 3 Allied units remaining on the island. One is the former Zamboanga garrison rotting in the jungle. I don't care about it. It'll eventually succumb to the wild. The other 2 are in the hex just east of Davao. An infantry regiment just arrived in the hex and will attack tomorrow.

Borneo

Nothing to report. I don't have the strength to do much here. The only bases I control are Singkawang and Sambas with a NG south at Pontianak and a reduced infantry regiment at Kuching. There's really no hurry to take any more bases up here. The airbase at Singkawang was what I needed early on, and it's not very important anymore.

Other Places

Jolo was successfully liberated. Engineers and AS are enroute. I plan on increasing the airfield to level 4 (from 3 currently) and deploy 2E bombers there to support the invasions in the area.

Burma

15 Army shock attacked across the river to the hex SW of Pegu, beating up and pushing out the 2 Burma Brigade and a small BF. They'll continue to Pegu.

Chiang Mai's airfield is currently at 2.08.

Intel says there are no ground units in Rangoon. Wish I had some paratroopers available!

China

Nothing happened today. My initial goals are threefold:

1. Clear the rail line between Sinyang and Chengchow.
2. Continue to advance to the oil fields in the north.
3. Clear the area of the Chinese scattered all over the area south of Nanchang.

Other Stuff

Nothing to report.

[Mike Solli]

I'm 3 days behind in posting. Here's the map of China from 5 Jan 42. I'll try to give more info on China. It's a pain in the ass to organize and collect the armies.

Mike,

Stop sugar-coating it! He'll start thinking it's so easy!

That base 2 hexes away from Sian in the mountain rough is a great place to paradrop on when you care going to take Nanyang, if not sooner. Fly in some engineers and air support . . .

Then get a fast unit moving onto the yellow road past that to start blocking fuel from getting to Chungking and Chengtu.

Once you move into Wenchow, it is a good idea to have a fast transport TF dropping off supplies while also bombarding the enemy land units. It will force a counter bombardment as well. In the meantime, if you bomb the port you might catch damaged submarines but even more importantly, slowing down the fort building while also possibly destroying some fuel.

Wish I had a parachute unit here but they'er all allocated elsewhere.

[Mike Solli]

4 Jan 42

Sub War

Nothing to report. There was a spotting though. See below.

5 Fleet

A sub spotted an xAP south of Umnak, but didn't take a shot.

The CL TF caught and sank an YP south of Adak. They also ran into an AVD but she got away in the poor weather. It is January in the North Pacific after all.

There is a 10 ship TF spotted one hex away. Intel says there are 3 AMCs and a DD in the TF. Let's go hunting!

4 Fleet

The Johnston Island invasion force is 2 days out and KB is 5 hexes SW of the target. Nothing is spotted. Inching closer...

SE Fleet

My air power is increasing here. Eventually, the whole of the 23 Air Flotilla and 5 Air Division will end up in this AO. Right now, I have 18 Zeros in Kavieng and another 9 in Truk, along with 9 Claudes and 27 Betties. Just about everything is ready to go. I still see no enemy naval forces down there, but I suspect they're there somewhere.

I liberated Hollandia.That will be a staging base for the parachute attack on Mergue and eventually Horne Island. The 2 Raiding Regiment should arrive (along with 27 transport planes). Both are allocated to this theater.

SRA

Malaya

My troops finally arrived at the 2 Allied speed bumps and will attack (and hopefully destroy) them.

The aerial bombardment of Singapore's airfield continues.

Philippines

Bombardment of Clark and Bataan continue. Bataan's airfield once again has damage, so I feel better now that forts there aren't increasing.

Mindanao

The 144 Infantry Regiment attacked the 101 PA Infantry Regiment and a BF, chewing them up but not killing them either. They didn't retreat so I'll attack them again tomorrow.

Borneo

Nothing to report.

Other Places

Ryujo has been hanging around to the east of Tobali. Today, she found CL Dragon, undoubtedly damaged from previous combat, but couldn't hit her. Later in the day, the Dutch Air Force finally decided to enter the war. They attacked twice. the first was 6x 139WH3 bombers escorted by 8 B339D fighters. Five enemy fighters were shot down protecting the bombers, which got through but did no damage, going after Kongo.

The second attack was only a flight of 6 bombers. Two were shot down and flak got another. No damage was done to any Japanese planes or ships. The fighters did gain a nice amount of experience!

Burma

After yesterday's successful attack, 15 Army is moving on Pegu.

China

Minor attacks here and there. More detail in a day or two.

Other Stuff

Nothing to report.

[Mike Solli]

5 Jan 42

Sub War

Nothing to report.

5 Fleet

Interesting day today. My little TF of 2 CL and 4 DD ran into the AVD and put a shell into her before she got away. I was kind of pissed until I saw that this was in the North Pacific in January in thunderstorms. Turned out the storms saved me. When Ted sent the turn, he sent this:

I have a welcome wagon up there waiting for you but apparently the captain hasn’t seen you :/

Anyway, after the "battle" above, my TF found a TF composed of 6 DM. They sank 1 and damaged 4 others. Ok, free intel. Adak is mined. Good to know. I also thought that was a strange welcome wagon. Anyway, my TF found them again and sure enough, there were 5. They managed to hit 3 of the damaged ships, one heavily. Now they were low on fuel and headed back to Etorofu. Thank goodness. After I sent the turn back to Ted, I got this:

I am completely disgusted. The welcome wagon had 3 CA, 3 CL and 5 DD and you drove past them twice. None have radar and the search planes weren’t flying.



My little fleet is headed back to safety. I still have 2 RO class subs in the area. Maybe they will get a shot off...

I need to get more subs to this sector, including a Glen sub or two. Wish I had them available...

Sometimes the RNG is just on your side,

4 Fleet

KB is still unspotted 4 hexes south of Johnston Island and will sweep and recon tomorrow. They'll know I'm there.

The invasion TF is 6 hexes south and will move north 4 hexes. The invasion goes in the day after tomorrow.

SE Fleet

Still waiting for carrier support for the Rabaul invasion.

SRA

Malaya

Both speed bumps have been eliminated. The only base in Malaya controlled by the Allies (aside from Singapore) is Batu Pahat, 2 hexes NE of Singapore. I have a tank regiment headed there. It's one hex away. The tank regiments are not going to participate in the siege of Singapore and will be reassigned to 15 Army.

The remainder of 25 Army is headed to Johore Bahru and then to Singapore.

Philippines

Still reducing the Allies. Elements of 23 Air Flotilla are transferring to SE Fleet.

Mindanao

Another attack on the Allied units the hex east of Davao caused more casualties to them, but they still didn't retreat or surrender. Another attack goes in tomorrow.

Borneo

Nothing to report.

Other Places

Ryujo's Kates put a torpedo into Dragon (in Palembang) leaving her burning and heavily damaged.

Burma

15 Army is still flowing up the road toward Pegu. They will perform a river crossing and shock attack tomorrow.

China

Nothing exciting to report.

Other Stuff

Nothing to report.

[RangerJoe]

Mike,

Stop sugar-coating it! He'll start thinking it's so easy!

That base 2 hexes away from Sian in the mountain rough is a great place to paradrop on when you care going to take Nanyang, if not sooner. Fly in some engineers and air support . . .

Then get a fast unit moving onto the yellow road past that to start blocking fuel from getting to Chungking and Chengtu.

Once you move into Wenchow, it is a good idea to have a fast transport TF dropping off supplies while also bombarding the enemy land units. It will force a counter bombardment as well. In the meantime, if you bomb the port you might catch damaged submarines but even more importantly, slowing down the fort building while also possibly destroying some fuel.

Wish I had a parachute unit here but they'er all allocated elsewhere.

Check your reinforcement queue, you may be getting another Army parachute unit. That could be a good use for it.

BTW, the armour has an important use, PM me if you want some advice . . .

[Chickenboy]

Hi Pax! I'm hoping to hear from you a lot. I'm rusty. It's really good to be back!

Hory crap! Mike-san! Subscribe-a-jima!

[PaxMondo]

Hi Pax! I'm hoping to hear from you a lot. I'm rusty. It's really good to be back!

Hory crap! Mike-san! Subscribe-a-jima!

CB!!!!

[Mike Solli]

Hi Pax! I'm hoping to hear from you a lot. I'm rusty. It's really good to be back!

Hory crap! Mike-san! Subscribe-a-jima!

Chickenboy!!! It's great to see you!

Hope all is well with you!

[Mike Solli]

That base 2 hexes away from Sian in the mountain rough is a great place to paradrop on when you care going to take Nanyang, if not sooner. Fly in some engineers and air support . . .

Then get a fast unit moving onto the yellow road past that to start blocking fuel from getting to Chungking and Chengtu.

Once you move into Wenchow, it is a good idea to have a fast transport TF dropping off supplies while also bombarding the enemy land units. It will force a counter bombardment as well. In the meantime, if you bomb the port you might catch damaged submarines but even more importantly, slowing down the fort building while also possibly destroying some fuel.

Wish I had a parachute unit here but they'er all allocated elsewhere.

Check your reinforcement queue, you may be getting another Army parachute unit. That could be a good use for it.

BTW, the armour has an important use, PM me if you want some advice . . .

Yep, it's the 2 Raiding Regiment. I'm getting it soon, but it's already allocated to SE Fleet. I'll send it to Hollandia and use it to take Merauke and then Horne Island.

I like to shock attack 1-2 units and put the tank regiments in reserve to pursue the Chinese. Usually, I can hit them again the next turn in the hex they retreated into.

[Mike Solli]

6 Jan 42

Sub War

Weird thing happened. One of my RO subs in the Aleutians is out of fuel. They're pulling out the oars and will make it back in a month. Then probably another month to repair all the damage. *sigh*

5 Fleet

The CL TF is 2 days from Etorofu. I doubt they're going back.

4 Fleet

Well, there are 3 units totaling 1300 troops at Johnston Island. I'll send in all 3 of my battalions tomorrow.

SE Fleet

Still no sign of Allied life down here.

SRA

Malaya

All my assault troops are flowing south to Johore Bahru. The divisions that are still broken down will recombine. Here's what will actually make the assault:

25 Army HQ
Imperial Guards Division
5 Division
18 Division
56 Division
4 Independent Engineer Regiment
15 Independent Engineer Regiment
23 Independent Engineer Regiment
3 Medium FA Regiment
18 Medium FA Regiment
14 Independent Artillery Mortar Battalion
3 Mortar Battalion
5 Mortar Battalion

Philippines

Same ole bombing and bombardment.

Mindanao

The two Allied units just east of Davao were destroyed today. I control all of the bases on the island. The only remaining Allied unit is the remnants of the former Zamboanga garrison, rotting in the jungle. It will eventually die off.

This operation is successfully completed.

Borneo

I landed at Sandakan and will take that base tomorrow.

Other Places

An AMc was caught near Tobali by Ryujo's Kates and sunk. Ryujo will head back to Cam Ranh Bay to replenish in preparation for the invasions of South Sumatra and Northern Java.

Burma

Pegu was liberated in a shock attack with the 2 Burma Brigade destroyed and the remnants of the two RAF BFs retreating into Rangoon. The 15 Army continues to advance.

China

No bases were taken today but maneuvering continues. It's like herding cats.

Other Stuff

Nothing to report.

[Mike Solli]

7 Jan 42

Sub War

It turned out Ted was helping guard Johnston Island with the S-18. One of the DDs escorting the invasion fleet managed to hit her with a depth charge (DC). She's still sitting in the hex. Not sure how badly damaged she is.

5 Fleet

Things have quieted down up here. My CL TF is being diverted from Etorofu directly to Yokohama for repairs (just minor stuff).

CL TF.png

I'm thinking of sending 2 CVs from KB up there just to poke around a bit to see if that CA TF is still hanging around. After that, they would go to the Home Islands to modify their air groups (more fighters, fewer bombers). I'll decide that tomorrow.

4 Fleet

Johnston Island is mine!

I made the mistake of not having KB's bombers bomb the heck out of the US troops, but it was fine. I lost a handful of squads out of each of the 3 battalions, but it was nothing bad. I also shot down a couple of PBY-5s and caught another 7 on the ground. I'll bet Ted is fuming!

There's little supply on the ground, but there's 700 tons on the fleet, which will hang around to drop it off. Then I'll pick up 2 of the battalions and head out. I'm going to find an engineer company that I'll try to sneak in to build some forts. I suspect Ted will try to take it back relatively soon. That's ok. It was worth the effort.

Enemy losses were 3 Marine Defense Battalion, Johnston Island Defense Battalion and a BF.

Two ships (CM and xAK) took damage and are on fire. I'm not sure they'll make it but they were put into their own TF and are working their way back to Kwajalein. It'll take about 9 days to make it but they either will or will succumb to the flames.

KB will hang around until the invasion fleet leaves.

SE Fleet

I decided to send the Rabaul invasion fleet south. It's going to be cautious, but I'll have Betties at Truk and Zeros at Kavieng to cover it.

SRA

Malaya

Still massing at Johore Bahru.

Philippines

More bombing and bombardment.

Borneo

Sandakan was liberated.

I attacked again at Pontianak and Kuching. Neither was successful, mainly because my forces are small at those bases, but the enemy is being ground down.

Other Places

Nothing to report.

Burma

14 Army is just a couple days march from Rangoon. The only garrison there are the 2 BFs that got thrown out of Pegu.

An infantry battalion is almost to Toungoo.

Chiang Mai's airfield is currently up to 2.37.

China

No bases were attacked today. I am still herding cats in the Kaifeng, Suchow, Sinyang triangle. Up north, I have two forces gathered, one heading to Lanchow and the other headed to Urumchi. Each has its own HQ to assist.

Other Stuff

I'm doing the complicated preparations for the following invasions:

Java
Southern Sumatra/Palembang
Balikpapan
Tarakan
Miri/Brunei

I'm using small units to take as many of the unprotected bases around them as quickly as possible.

[RangerJoe]

This is about a submarine that actually used sails to return to port. The USS R-14:

https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/08/ ... -14-ss-91/