Pakistan shot down an Indian Rafale from ~200 km using a Chinese PL-15 missile

[Nikel]

A recent Reuters report confirms Pakistan shot down an Indian Rafale from ~200 km using a Chinese PL-15 missile. It’s officially now one of the longest-range air-to-air kills in history and the first confirmed Rafale loss in combat.

With this graphic comparision.

The last one though is probably wrong, or at least that loadout is not available in the db for the F-15.





https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 025-08-02/

https://theaviationist.com/2025/08/03/i ... d-reuters/


The range extension was already requested by Luigi-II.

https://github.com/PygmalionOfCyprus/cm ... ssues/6379

[thewood1]

It is wrong. It was an F-15 with a 120B. According to Osprey's F-15C Eagle Units in Combat, it was on March 24, 1999 over western Kosovo. Mig-29 detected at 62 miles, Locked on at 40 miles, and the missile was released at about 30. The final missile strike happened around 17 miles. That was the only one of the F-15 to Mig-29 shootdowns that happened over 20 miles in Kosovo.

[KLAB]

Not good for creating a convincing argument when a graphic states an F-15 fired a Phoenix and the author hasn't the background knowledge to pick up on the anomaly .....

[thewood1]

I don't think F-14s were even engaged in Kosovo.
edit...in air-to-air.

[Tcao]

Where is this 200km kill claim coming from?

I remember we saw Pakistan official claimed that they began to fire missiles at about 180km (this is from my memory, cannot find the source now). It didn't confirm such long range fire achieved a kill.

It is likely a harassment/suppressing fire. And it is even possible that this extremely long range engagement happened just before Pakistan's counter attack on the night of May 7th, targeting the Indian's AEW aircraft, forcing it retreats.

[Rebel Yell]

I don't believe that at all.

The source and the equipment involved is all highly suspect.

[HalfLifeExpert]

I'll have to see alot more verifiable data to believe a kill of that kind at that range.

I can buy a J-10 with that missile blasting, say, a tanker, drone, or heavy bomber at that range, but a Gen 4.5 fighter?

The Rafale is a recent addition to the Indian Air Force (2022), and no question such valuable aircraft are going to get high quality pilots. At that range, the missile is going to have lost alot of energy needed for keeping up with a defensive maneuvering target like a Rafale.

The only other explanation is if the Rafale pilot was completely incompetent and didn't maneuver, but I HIGHLY doubt that.

[SunlitZelkova]

FYI, the graphic does not come from the news source "confirming" the kill. It seems to be from an entirely separate OSINT group. The confirmation comes from Reuters journalists who claim to have interviewed both Pakistani and Indian officials. Some RUSI analysts weigh in, perhaps giving it some degree of credibility. They don't agree with the Pakistani claim's exact distance. They just say it emphasizes how situational awareness is important.

I agree with the RUSI analysts. Whether the fighters are Chinese, French, or American, and whether the missiles hit at 150 or 200 km, the engagement just shows that proper networking is important.

I also don't believe the Pakistani claim, not necessarily because they are lying for propaganda purposes, but more so because it is likely they would deliberately make a generic, trumped up claim to hide the actual performance for security reasons.

That's unfortunate to see someone actually making a DB request to modify the PL-15's range based on this claim. Like the previously discussed performance of the MOP and the Moskva, this is another example of where changing the performance of a unit in-game based on a single incident in real life is very misguided.

[Nikel]

Indeed the graphic is from PakistanWarRoom.

I suppose the Phoenix loadout on a F-15 is a typo, because the objective is to emphasize the performance of the Pakistani Air force.

The references font is very small, however with zoom is "readable". I do not see Kosovo anywhere, perhaps comes from the ausairpower magazine, but could not find the link they cite.


PL-15 max. range of 200 kms is not new, cited in this RUSI report from 2020 (also 400 kms for the PL-17).

The PL-15 is a missile with a visually similar profile to the AIM-120C/D, including cropped fins
for internal carriage by stealth aircraft, but is longer and wider with a small AESA radar seeker
head and a dual-pulse motor giving a maximum range in the 200 km class.

https://static.rusi.org/russian_and_chi ... ersion.pdf


They source they use is Rupprech, Modern Chinese Warplanes, p. 111. Published in 2018.

https://harpia-publishing.com/hapbook/37


In the db the max range is 108 nm, so 200 kms.

However in the game Pakistan only has the export version, max range is 78,3 nm or 144,5 kms.

[thewood1]

"They source they use is Rupprech, Modern Chinese Warplanes, p. 111. Published in 2018.

https://harpia-publishing.com/hapbook/37"

I own that book and the range listed is entirely speculative and not based on any performance info or even on any manufacturer claim. The PL-15 was barely more than conceptual as the renamed PL-12C. In fact, PL-15 isn't even listed as available ordinance in the listing of AAMs for Chinese aircraft. Its literally mentioned as the possible future PL-15 with speculation on its motor and seeker.

[Nikel]

He is an expert on the matter so his speculations may be considered gospel truth compared with others opinions, rumors, etc.

In fact the game is using those 200 kms as max range, for a reason.

The truth is only known by the chinese military, and will only be public when tested in combat, and perhaps not even then as we see in this short indo-pakistani conflict.

[tylerblakebrandon]

It's not just the Pakistanis making these claims, the Indians are giving confirmation of longer range capabilities of the missile. Quoting from the Reuters article linked in the DB request on GitHub the Indians themselves indicate the missile was fired from a range greater than 200km and that pilots operating under assumptions of intelligence indicating a 150km max range believed the were out of range and safe from attack. Basically, they believed air show data plaques and were caught completely by surprise.

"But Reuters interviews with two Indian officials and three of their Pakistani counterparts found that the performance of the Rafale wasn't the key problem: Central to its downing was an Indian intelligence failure concerning the range of the China-made PL-15 missile fired by the J-10 fighter. China and Pakistan are the only countries to operate both J-10s, known as Vigorous Dragons, and PL-15s.
The faulty intelligence gave the Rafale pilots a false sense of confidence they were out of Pakistani firing distance, which they believed was only around 150 km, the Indian officials said, referring to the widely cited range of PL-15's export variant.

"We ambushed them," the PAF official said, adding that Islamabad conducted an electronic warfare assault on Delhi's systems in an attempt to confuse Indian pilots. Indian officials dispute the effectiveness of those efforts.
"The Indians were not expecting to be shot at," said Justin Bronk, air warfare expert at London's Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) think-tank. "And the PL-15 is clearly very capable at long range."

The PL-15 that hit the Rafale was fired from around 200km (124.27 mi) away, according to Pakistani officials, and even farther according to Indian officials. That would make it among the longest-range air-to-air strikes recorded."

[Nikel]

I was searching for some info on the reportedly intact PL-15 that the indian military supposedly found during the conflict, and this is the first link that Google shows...

https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/japa ... r-secrets/

War is deception, and "Non-War" even more


In the game you may recreate the shooting down of the Rafale at nearly max range as was described by Reuters with these units:

- Indian Rafale, rookie and obeying EMCON.

- Pakistani J-10, ace, radar ON and armed with the real deal P-15 (with its missile datalink), not the export version.

And I suppose by many other means and actions that CMO allows

[thewood1]

He is an expert on the matter so his speculations may be considered gospel truth compared with others opinions, rumors, etc.

In fact the game is using those 200 kms as max range, for a reason.

The truth is only known by the chinese military, and will only be public when tested in combat, and perhaps not even then as we see in this short indo-pakistani conflict.

Thats not my point. My point is if you read the entire section of the book, he even admits its a guess because no one at that time had seen a PL-15 and it was still in development. The "quoted" 200 km range was taken out of the context of the books comments. He didn't even say that was the range of the PL-15. He said he is assuming its in the 200 km area of ranges.

The larger point is how just grabbing quotes that fit a story instead of telling the story continues to be an issue on all forums.

[Tcao]

OK, I found the source claimed that the longest PL-15 shot taken was 98nm.
https://www.twz.com/air/chinas-j-10c-fi ... om-reality
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/131138 ... n-pakistan

It is interesting to see the claim inflated to 200km (108nm), the speculate Max Range, as well as with a kill claim.

[Tcao]

And talking about PL-15's max range
here is another claim

1754456965297.jpeg (231.54 KiB) Viewed 536 times

1754456954853.jpeg (203.26 KiB) Viewed 536 times

[Sanyr1310]

And talking about PL-15's max range
here is another claim

1754456965297.jpeg

1754456954853.jpeg

Could be engaging maneuvering fighter jet envelope (or A-Pole range envelope? They highlight A-Pole range in the picture). This picture shows fighter vs fighter combat. If targeting high value large aircraft, its range could be way longer.