Rifle corps in 14 december 1941? WTF

[daretti]

Today I'm playing a multiplayer game with a friend on the latest patch and on December 14, 1941, I'm attacked by rifle corps.... Have the people responsible for any historical realities been fired from the company?

[Denniss]

Two Guards Rifle Corps are permitted from 9/41, more may be created in 1942 but plain Rifle Corps may only be built from 6/42.
This may need some tuning as only the 1st was operating in early 10/41 then disbanded/transformed intot the 26th army. by order of 31december 1941 the 1st GRC was to be recreated by 10 January 42 as well as a 2nd GRC to be created by the same day. Justified change would be a delay to 10/41 and reduction to 1

[Wiedrock]

There were also some "Operational Groups" which were corps-like, maybe they could also be imagined by those early corps.

[daretti]

Keep smashing this game, bravo

https://zapodaj.net/plik-cfVboa3KPo

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Keep smashing this game, bravo

https://zapodaj.net/plik-cfVboa3KPo

Who are you playing against?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Two Guards Rifle Corps are permitted from 9/41, more may be created in 1942 but plain Rifle Corps may only be built from 6/42.
This may need some tuning as only the 1st was operating in early 10/41 then disbanded/transformed intot the 26th army. by order of 31december 1941 the 1st GRC was to be recreated by 10 January 42 as well as a 2nd GRC to be created by the same day. Justified change would be a delay to 10/41 and reduction to 1

Looks to be 3 on the map in a previous post.

[Denniss]

Two Guards Rifle Corps are permitted from 9/41, more may be created in 1942 but plain Rifle Corps may only be built from 6/42.
This may need some tuning as only the 1st was operating in early 10/41 then disbanded/transformed intot the 26th army. by order of 31december 1941 the 1st GRC was to be recreated by 10 January 42 as well as a 2nd GRC to be created by the same day. Justified change would be a delay to 10/41 and reduction to 1

Looks to be 3 on the map in a previous post.

11 Jan 1942 so higher limits in effect although Guards only until 6/42

[daretti]

Keep smashing this game, bravo

https://zapodaj.net/plik-cfVboa3KPo

Who are you playing against?

another player

[daretti]

Two Guards Rifle Corps are permitted from 9/41, more may be created in 1942 but plain Rifle Corps may only be built from 6/42.
This may need some tuning as only the 1st was operating in early 10/41 then disbanded/transformed intot the 26th army. by order of 31december 1941 the 1st GRC was to be recreated by 10 January 42 as well as a 2nd GRC to be created by the same day. Justified change would be a delay to 10/41 and reduction to 1

Looks to be 3 on the map in a previous post.

What is the historical validity of these revelations?

[AliaksandrM]

This is my first post and so: Hi at all

It seems like theme describes game with me.
A short describe of overall situation. Game with some house rules ( no "Airborne guard factory" - build guard dive from AirBde only in historical limit, no swarm air attack by small aircraft packages , no block ferry by fleet etc)

Daretti advanced till November , and in very aggressive manner.
He took - Kalinin, Tula, Lipeck, Voronez, Voroshilovgrad and Sevastopol.
Most advanced point what german panzers got - Boguczar and some small towns near Don river, 7-8 hexes from Stalingrad.
I can stay (better that it was at real history) only at Luga river line, Stalino and Yalta in Crimea
His moto-armored fists were quite powerful, with a good assist of numerous IDs, with a systematic rest behind line (to collect CPP, as we can understand) and with bold strategic maneuvers by railways to do suprises in different parts of frontline.

In opposite side:
- he needs to cover flanks of these strong fists by regimented IDs. And soviet collected a huge number of small vicories against these rgts mostly ( Stavka got 200+ victories before December) due harrasment attacks.
- logistic situation of advanced german part was awfull. Almost all divisions were Red logistic status of own icon (exept north-east part of line were front stay from September). No good fortification points also. And "Harsh winter" game rule no did situation better.
All this slack line of logistic depleted divs was rolled back in winter at the end. From Torzok on the north part at Stalino/Gorlovka on the soth part. Soviet divs collected more victories (+/-500 currently, 30 turn).

In addtion
1
Regarding historical corps
About 2 attempts of 1st GRC was mentioned previosly
Also, 9 Rifle Corp (non-guarded) remained till middle of 01/1942. It took part in Crimea amphibious assault.
Archive documents of 9 RC are available, for example - 02.01.1942, Feodosia (one of main point of amphibious assault) :

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=114726725
2
Regarding mechanized divs
One mechanized div (with tank rgt) was in 1942 - it was not defeated at null previously.
107 motorifle division
https://www.rkkawwii.ru/division/107msdf1
It was reformed at 2 guard motorifle div, but its 143 Armored Rgt still remained and fight near Rzev in August 1942

[daretti]

It's actually good that you wrote, because I have a few questions. What's the supply situation like? From what I can see, even though your troops are moving forward strongly, they have no problems with supplies everywhere. That's a bit strange. The second issue is the isolated divisions in Crimea, which have no access to a functioning port, yet are still fully supplied. I have the impression that the Soviet supply system is also broken.

[daretti]

Regarding historical corps
About 2 attempts of 1st GRC was mentioned previosly
Also, 9 Rifle Corp (non-guarded) remained till middle of 01/1942. It took part in Crimea amphibious assault.
Archive documents of 9 RC are available, for example - 02.01.1942, Feodosia (one of main point of amphibious assault) :

The 9th Rifle Corps operated as a headquarters and consisted of the 236th, 157th, and 98th Rifle Divisions, as well as the 251st Mountain Rifle Regiment. This is not the equivalent of the corps formed in mid-1942. It's clear that whoever was responsible for historical matters was fired or hired some complete amateurs. Shameful.

[AliaksandrM]

1
Logistic not a good at 100%, but quite well.
Generally , Soviet logistic is much better than German at all cases, be cause Germa kakes 2 systems of penalty - "1941 general penalty" (high cost of logistic movement etc) + 'Harsh winter" (Big shance of techci desruption, higher cost mvement etc) -but it is much more better described in Manual. It will be till March/1942. Winter 41/42 is a time of pain for German side
2
Its true for all Soviet Corps
All time of GPW Soviet Rifle Corps consisted of divisions and/or brigades, changed own composition from time to time, redirect divs and bdes between each other, etc.
It is true for Mech and tank corps also
I mean real formation, not a game
For example 5 mech corps changed a lot of own bdes and rgts even, due GPW
https://rkka.wiki/index.php/5_%D0%BC%D0 ... %B8%D1%8F)
4 cavalry corps situated in the depth of SU, was in Iran and went at the front at the end 1942. And it was the same formation all the time till own disband at 1943 not 1941
https://rkka.wiki/index.php/4_%D0%BA%D0 ... 1%83%D1%81
HQ type of unit or battle type of unit - this is just a detail of game mechanics only.
3
Yalta is +/-ok. Port was not damaged.

[daretti]

I can already see five infantry corps...in January 1942...THIS IS A SCANDAL. Who's responsible for this? This is a huge strengthening of the USSR...where's the balance, where's the historical reality?

The current patch has been available for quite some time. Has no one noticed these absurdities? It's glaring!

[AliaksandrM]

As described in Manual - guard becomes not by Event but with victories collection (only a few units become guard by events).
This is 2 sides of medal
-or you are going fast forward with huge fists and cover flanks by regiments. Convest the cities, take a menpower points and factories from Soviet. And just to wait a bit when Soviet collect small victories over regiments for Guards packages
-or you are going much more carefully, dont take a lot of cities and factories from Soviet, but you will take Soviet advance that wold be made by usial types of forces, not a lot of guards at least

Nobody promised that SU conquest would be easy

[daretti]

As described in Manual - guard becomes not by Event but with victories collection (only a few units become guard by events).
This is 2 sides of medal
-or you are going fast forward with huge fists and cover flanks by regiments. Convest the cities, take a menpower points and factories from Soviet. And just to wait a bit when Soviet collect small victories over regiments for Guards packages
-or you are going much more carefully, dont take a lot of cities and factories from Soviet, but you will take Soviet advance that wold be made by usial types of forces, not a lot of guards at least

Nobody promised that SU conquest would be easy

I have no problem with you damaging Guard divisions through victory, but you have infantry corps, armored divisions, and mechanized divisions, which haven't happened at this stage. This isn't an attack on you, but on whoever implemented this nonsense in the game.

[AliaksandrM]

Generally , explanations regaring game rules and historical situability (+ attemtes of flxeability, that were incloded in to game by designers ) were explaied previously by another users, I am generally agree with them. + this is just a game
In real history on the end of Jan42 Red Army has 13 guard rifle diviision (#1-12, 14),inculing 1 out of WITE2 area (10 grd was near Murmansk) +2 guard motorifle divisions (#1 and 2)
During Dec41-Jan42 were 4 Guard (#1-4) and 1 Non-Guard (#9) Rifle Corps
It correlated between each other (some divs were included into corps, some were separated) -and almost equal your described vision of situation.
To be th honest, current situation with guards is better that was in real history.

About tank and mechanized divisions also were quite well explanations, that some of them, who did not get fatal defeat, remained till Jan42.

Also, in the future - will be tank corps , huge arty formations, a lot of TAC and.. and a other parts of Soviet colossus so far .
Unforunately WITE2 does not contain Anti-tank divisions ( aka"истребительная дивизия", each consisted 2-3 AT bde), but arty bdes are avaiable from start of 1942 also,for example.

[daretti]

Generaly its all scandal !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Denniss]

9 Guards Rifle Corps were formed from late 41 to 5/42. Several may originated from Guard Rifle divs created via merged Airborne Brigades. So its up to the player to get GRDs by being successful in combat to form GRCs.

[56ajax]

Perhaps this could be answered through game experience.

I have 2 games in progress as the Soviets.

Game 1. Open TBs. Getting belted. Leningrad lost. Axis close to Moscow and not going anywhere. At T32, Jan 1942. Playing on out of politeness.

Red Army still has 4 tank divs, 3 in TBs and one to disband in 2 turns. There are still 8 mech divs. There is 1 Guards RD created by rename, no Rifle Corps - none. No support unit has gained Guards Status.

Game 2. Closed TBs. Doing better than game 1. Leningrad lost. Axis close to Moscow and has been pushed back. At T48, May 1942

Red Army still has 3 tank divs in TBs . There are 0 mech divs. There are 12 Guards Rifle Corps and 3 Guards RDs. 13 ART and 3 AT gained Guards Status. Probably 2 of the Guards RCs have been created from Airborne brigades being merged. A touch gamey but I havent abused it. I have farmed for Guards RDs in that where there is an obvious win I choose units with the highest number of wins to participate.

Conclusion

If the Axis remains relentlessly aggressive then the conditions that allow the creation of Guards RCs will not be met.