German/Russian rocket types in SPWAW

[Jaques Rico]

First some data about russian rocket types used in SPWAW:

M-8 original Data

Diameter: 82mm
Lenght: 745 mm
Weight complete: 8 kg
Weight Explosive: 0,64 kg
Weight Fuel: 1,18 kg
Velocity: 315 m/s
Range: 5515 m

M-8 Data extracted from SPWAW

Warhead: 5
HE-Penetration: 40
HE-Kill: 8
Range 112 hex/5600 m

M-13 DD original Data

Diameter: 132 mm
Lenght: 2120 mm
Weight complete: 62,5 kg
Weight Explosive: 4,9 kg
Weight Fuel: 15 kg
Velocity: 520 m/s
Range: 11800m

M-13 DD Data extracted from SPWAW

Warhead: 10
HE-Penetration: 60
HE-Kill: 22
Range: 160 hex/8000 m

M-31 UK original Data

Diameter: 300 mm
Lenght: 1760 mm
Weight complete: 95 kg
Weight Explosive: 28,9 kg
Weight Fuel: 11,25 kg
Velocity: 245 m/s
Range: 4000 m

M-31 UK Data extracted from SPWAW

Warhead: 17
HE-Penetration: 132
HE-Kill: 40
Range: 112 hex/5600 m

Now on to the german systems:

150 mm Wurfgranate 41 Spreng original Data
(used by 15cm Nebelwerfer 41 and Panzerwerfer (Maultier))

Diameter: 158,5mm
Lenght: 940mm
Weight complete: 34,2kg
Weight Explosive: 2,06kg
Weight Fuel: 6kg
Velocity: 340m/2
Range: 6700m

150 mm Wurfgranate 41 Spreng Data extracted from SPWAW

Warhead: 10
HE-Penetration: 51
HE-Kill: 18
Range: 128hex/6400m

210 mm Wurfgranate 43 original Data
(used by 21 cm Nebelwerfer 42)

Diameter: 214,5mm
Lenght: 1260mm
Weight complete: 111kg
Weight Explosive: 39,2kg
Weight Fuel: 18kg
Velocity: 320m/s
Range: 7850m

210 mm Wurfgranate 43 Data extracted from SPWAW

Warhead: 13
HE-Penetration: 65
HE-Kill: 27
Range: 224hex/11200m

280 mm Wurfkörper Spreng original Data
(used by Wurfrahmen 40 and 28/32cm Nebelwerfer 41)

Diameter: 280mm
Lenght: 1260mm
Weight complete: 82kg
Weight Explosive: 45,4kg
Weight Fuel: 6kg
Velocity: 149m/s
Range: 1925m

280 mm Wurfkörper Spreng Data extracted from SPWAW

Warhead: 15
HE-Penetration: 95
HE-Kill: 32
Range: 56hex/2800m

320 mm Wurfkörper Flamm original Data
(used by Wurfrahmen 40 and 28/32 cm Nebelwerfer 41)

Diameter: 327mm
Lenght: 1300mm
Weight complete: 79kg
Weight Explosive: 50kg
Weight Fuel: 6kg
Velocity: 153m/s
Range: 2200m

320 mm Wurfkörper Flamm Data extracted from SPWAW

Warhead: 17
HE-Penetration: 150
HE-Kill: 40
Range: 56hex/2800m

380 mm Wurfgranate 4581 original Data
(used by Sturmtiger)

Diameter: 380mm
Lenght: 1500mm
Weight complete: 345,2kg
Weight Explosive: 125kg
Weight Fuel: 40kg
Velocity: n/a
Range: 5000m

380 mm Wurfgranate 4581 Data extracted from SPWAW

Warhead: 21
HE-Penetration: 138
HE-Kill: 53
Range: 88hex/4400m

300 mm Wurfkörper Spreng original Data
(used by 30cm Nebelwerfer 42 and Gebirgsraketenwerfer 43)
-->This one doesnt exist in SPWAW, its here to make the list complete and because I think it should exist in SPWAW.

Diameter: 300mm
Lenght: 1250mm
Weight complete: 127kg
Weight Explosive: 48,2kg
Weight Fuel: 15,1kg
Velocity: 230m/s
Range: 4500m

The original Data is taken from "Raketen und Lenkwaffen des zweiten Weltkrieges - 1. Raketen der Klasse Boden-Boden" (Rockets and guided weapons of the Second World War - 1. Rockets of the class surface-to-surface) from K.A. Kusnezow, who should be known to military-interested people.)

The discrepancies between the original range of the missiles and the range used by SPWAW are obvious. But I would like to know how the SPWAW-team got the amour penetration and the HE-Kill ratings for all the rocket systems.

For example lets compare the M-31 and the 280 mm Wurfkörper Spreng: The M-31 has 28,9kg explosive, an amour-penetration rate of 132 and a HE-kill rate of 40. The 280 mm rocket has 16,5kg explosive more but the penetration is only 95 and the HE-kill only 32.

Or lets look at the 210mm Wurfgranate 43. That rocket was fragmentation mine projectile, which should with an direct hit penetrate any armour in the game. But for its 39,2kg (other sources said 38,6kg) explosive it gets in SPWAW only an amour-penetration of 65 and a HE-kill rate of 27. And that with 10kg more explosive than the M-31!

And very, very much interesting are the ratings for the 380mm Wurfgranate. With more than 4 times of the explosive of the M-31 it only has an amour-penetration of 138 and an HE-kill rate of 53. I am not so sure about the HE-kill rates but the amour-penetration appears to be a bit low. That projectile was able to penetrate 2,5 m of reinforced concrete. It is reported that in January of 1945, a single shot fired by a Sturmtiger from PzStuMrKp 1001 completely destroyed three American M4 Sherman tanks located in the village, which was the target.

So, that was it for now. I hope now for some reactions.

Greetings
JR

[ July 26, 2001: Message edited by: Jaques Rico ]

[Warrior]

It's probably a playability issue. I can't speak for the people who set these values in the game, but in my humble opinion if the actual stats for rocket damage were used, it wouldn't be any use playing the game. You wouldn't have a prayer against a rocket that can kill three tanks at a time. I'd prefer to have the game use non-historical values, and have a chance at winning, rather than just getting my entire force wiped out by the first salvo of enemy rockets. Rockets in the game are already plenty good killers.

If you were expecting to find that the game has total historical accuracy (and thank goodness it doesn't), I'm afraid you'll be disappointed.

[ July 26, 2001: Message edited by: Warrior ]

[Jaques Rico]

I know that there have to be certain compromises between playability and historical accuracy. But I suppose it would not affect the game to much to use for example the correct range values.
And about different penetration and HE-Kill values, well I dont know how much that would affect the gameplay, but I would really like to know how the SPWAW-team got their numbers in the first place.
About the Sturmtiger, only 17 of them were build, but if the allieds found one of them usually several (!) artillery groups were commanded to shot at it.
And while rockets have a huge impact in the game you need to suppy them steadily with ammunition, so if you can locate the place of the enemy rocket launchers, one artillery bombardment is often enough to destroy the ammo trucks and render the rocket launchers useless.

Greetings
JR

[gators]

jacques there's already a recurring debate about how much realism is involved; its probably true of every attempt to simulate something with so many variables. I have quibbles too my favorite one is the missing gebirgsjager. There are always trade offs I suppose.

[Jaques Rico]

@freyburg

I dont complain about missing units, or at least not to much. But I wonder why there are such discrepancies with allready existing units.
And the rocket systems are surely not the only weapon systems who could live with a little bit more realism.

For example Iam still searching for data about the 12,8cm Pak 44, but the existing data conflict with each other. Chamberlain and Doyle have different values than Devey, who has again values who differ greatly from Etterlin´s. But why should the 12,8 have less penetration than the 8,8? The field reports said it penetrated nearly everything. Part of the confusion may be that some of the sources use the penetration data of the APC-grenade and not of the Panzergranate 43 (APCBC) for the Jagdtiger.

Greetings
JR

[panda124c]

Originally posted by Jaques Rico:
@freyburg

I dont complain about missing units, or at least not to much. But I wonder why there are such discrepancies with allready existing units.
And the rocket systems are surely not the only weapon systems who could live with a little bit more realism.

For example Iam still searching for data about the 12,8cm Pak 44, but the existing data conflict with each other. Chamberlain and Doyle have different values than Devey, who has again values who differ greatly from Etterlin´s. But why should the 12,8 have less penetration than the 8,8? The field reports said it penetrated nearly everything. Part of the confusion may be that some of the sources use the penetration data of the APC-grenade and not of the Panzergranate 43 (APCBC) for the Jagdtiger.

Greetings
JR

In the OOB / TO&E's / Military Equipment
forum they are discussing OOB changes and how the values are arrived at. So you might be able to get a more definite answer there.

[Jaques Rico]

@PBEAR

Thank you for the suggestion.
I will post my topic there.

Greetings
JR

[Paul Vebber]

Appreciate the Rocket data - much of the data was carried over fromt earlier games and "guesstimates" in teh lack of info. TRying to find definitive info on EVERY weapon used by EVERY combatant is daunting, and often mistakes occur. INput like this helps us improve.

On 88 vs 128 AT guns the game give the 88L71 a base pen of 232 and the 128mm 243. (this based on info in Lorrin Bird and Robert Livingstons new book).