Big problem bug - some land units shifted to an hex sideways in a shock attack turn

[Diliwitm]

PBEM version 1.8.11.28.4 Mar 04 2023

Assault/shock river attack from 88,43(from North) against Chengchow

D Day -1 24 September 1942
all units were in 88,43 and moved already in 44 miles to Chengchow 88,44. They were following in combat movement the 36 ID direct combat movement to Chengchow.

D day turn 25 September 1942

2 tank regiments the only armored units following and 36 Infantry division itself instead of going to Chengchow went magically to Kaifeng and these 3 units are now said to have moved 2 miles to Chengchow from Kaifeng.

It is important to stress that the 36 Infantry division that magically moved sideways to Kaifeng was the unit being followed by all others. But those units assaulted Chengchow, except 2 armored units that followed 36 ID to Kaifeng.

Is this one one known bug of current beta? i was not keen to go to it but my opponent said we should go. This might have broken the PBEM after investing 292 turns in it.

[RangerJoe]

I don't know of any bug like that. I do know that sometimes the movement does not go like you think that it should. Maybe because of the tank units, they went a different path because it was "shorter" in the sense of quicker, that is less time to move the distance involved. But if all of the units were following the same unit and if the lead unit was an infantry division, then they all should have moved the same path. The one thing to check might be how the roads actually are and not the picture that you see.

[PaxMondo]

In addition to RJ's suggestion, go back a turn or two and examine carefully the DIRECTION that the units were going. Were they all going the same direction? Do all of the units show that that were following?

Screenshot 2025-09-22 201030.jpg (8.41 KiB) Viewed 351 times

As shown above, all units need to have the same 2nd - 4th and 6th lines. The only one that can be different is the 5th, but only at the start, after a few turns then 2nd - 6th lines should ALL be the same.

As RJ notes: this is NOT A BUG. We've got millions of turns on this game, literally. So, go back a turn or two and examine carefully each and every unit movement. The devil is ALWAYS in the details in this game.

PS: In the Tech Support Area here, there is a similar issue being discussed, I would also suggest that you read/follow that discussion.

Good LUCK!!

[Chris21wen]

Sounds like Version 28b.

On my version the hexside between 88,43 and 88,44 shows a disused rail line crossing a river. The hexside between 88,43 and 89,44 (Kaifeng) also has the disused rail but no river. It looks like the units took the easier path. If the units were in move mode and the others in combat mode this might explain it however they are still trying to cross so...?

I'd certainly go back and check their orders.

[Diliwitm]

Units are in hex 88,43, movement is just to the next hex 88,44 a river assault , Kaifeng is 89,44.

The units are by stack order (there is another unit an HQ at left of stack and another unit and end of stack. These 2 have no orders and remained there.

Problem.jpg (105.29 KiB) Viewed 320 times

[BBfanboy]

Units considered "Armoured" are motorized and will often take a road route rather than slog overland. It has to do with the game calculating which is the most efficient route that still has supply.

[Yaab]

Sorry, why is there "(Direct)" flag on some of th units? I have never paid attention to this.

[BBfanboy]

Sorry, why is there "(Direct)" flag on some of th units? I have never paid attention to this.

In many places, using an indirect road route would get the unit to the target hex faster and with less fatigue. But if the target hex is immediately adjacent to the marching unit, it will be sent direct (cross-country). If you don't want that you have to send it first to a different target hex (e.g. a road hex) and then give new orders to approach the original target from there. This eats up more time because of the 15 mile or 30 mile progress on roads. You waste 14 miles of potential progress toward the original target hex when you give the new orders to move from the waypoint hex. I asked for overland waypoints like there is for ocean travel but it was not taken up in the new version .1128 game.

[Diliwitm]

Units considered "Armoured" are motorized and will often take a road route rather than slog overland. It has to do with the game calculating which is the most efficient route that still has supply.

Why are you ignoring the information i put? Pleases try to explain why the main Infantry unit that is being followed went to different place than the also infantry followers?

[Diliwitm]

Sorry, why is there "(Direct)" flag on some of th units? I have never paid attention to this.

In many places, using an indirect road route would get the unit to the target hex faster and with less fatigue. But if the target hex is immediately adjacent to the marching unit, it will be sent direct (cross-country). If you don't want that you have to send it first to a different target hex (e.g. a road hex) and then give new orders to approach the original target from there. This eats up more time because of the 15 mile or 30 mile progress on roads. You waste 14 miles of potential progress toward the original target hex when you give the new orders to move from the waypoint hex. I asked for overland waypoints like there is for ocean travel but it was not taken up in the new version .1128 game.

The order was the 36ID to the adjacent hex with the followers.

[WEXF]

Why are you ignoring the information i put? Pleases try to explain why the main Infantry unit that is being followed went to different place than the also infantry followers?

I am no expert, but I have two questions that might be relevant.
1. What happened to the Chinese units that were in Changchow as a result if the shock attack? Did they all retreat (if yes, to where) or are some still in Changchow.
2. Since a shock attack increases fatigue and disruption levels of the attacker, what were those numbers before and after the attack, especially for the 36ID and the armor?
My thinking is that perhaps the lead units (36ID and the two tank units) might have borne the brunt of the attack with the others not being hit as hard. Also not certain if the shock attack could well impact the orders as they were written causing units to go different ways.
WEXF

[Diliwitm]

Thanks for the interest

1- All Chinese units are still in Chengchow, the assault was 1:1 , i have 4600 causalities, Chinese 2000, in combat squads was 434 disabled vs 232 , destroyed was minimal around 10 Japan vs 13 for Chinese. Chinese are under 5 forts from 6. Fog of War applies to causalities, this is only the report from my side.

2- The 36ID and 2 tank units did not attacked, they are in Kaifeng with 2 miles movement done to Chengchow when in the turn before in the other hex they already had 44 miles to Chengchow like the others, the 36ID being the leading unit.

[WEXF]

Thanks for the interest

1- All Chinese units are still in Chengchow, the assault was 1:1 , i have 4600 causalities, Chinese 2000, in combat squads was 434 disabled vs 232 , destroyed was minimal around 10 Japan vs 13 for Chinese. Chinese are under 5 forts from 6. Fog of War applies to causalities, this is only the report from my side.

2- The 36ID and 2 tank units did not attacked, they are in Kaifeng with 2 miles movement done to Chengchow when in the turn before in the other hex they already had 44 miles to Chengchow like the others, the 36ID being the leading unit.

If I am understanding what happened correctly the 36ID and the tank units never got to Chengchow and are not listed in the units that took part in the shock attack, but instead went to Kaifeng and are now heading to Chengchow. The road being travelled on is a major road but the 36ID moves as infantry and does not have the ability to get to Kaifeng from where it was in one turn. Somewhere "under the hood" there must have been a die roll that caused the movement. Perhaps the level 6 forts encountered by the troops attempting to cross the river played a part.

[Diliwitm]

I am sorry but that is an attempt to rationalize game behavior with no solid foundation.
36ID was the leading unit, the unit movement screen said that it was to go to Chengchow and it moved 44 miles of 46 needed. Other units also went there and were following the 36ID.

[WEXF]

I am sorry but that is an attempt to rationalize game behavior with no solid foundation.
36ID was the leading unit, the unit movement screen said that it was to go to Chengchow and it moved 44 miles of 46 needed. Other units also went there and were following the 36ID.

You are right, it is a rationalization without foundation in the rules as we know them. That being said, in my games I have had units move when not ordered to, leave bases when ordered to stay as garrisons, and retreat multiple hexes after battles. Are these all "bugs"? I have decided, for me, to consider them as part of the game. I hope you or someone more experienced in our game than I am, can pinpoint what happened.
WEXF

[BBfanboy]

I think the Follow command is subject to die rolls because it was never reliable from the time the game came out. What die rolls? Perhaps some leadership traits? Unit morale? Fatigue? Terrain (some units more affected by rough terrain than others)? Or maybe some factor that says the leader can't find the correct path?

I always "Set all to march" and work out the movement mode needed to get the units to arrive at the same time. Even then, low troop morale or low aggression/inspiration leadership can lead to the unit refusing to cross into the enemy hex.

[Chris21wen]

Units considered "Armoured" are motorized and will often take a road route rather than slog overland. It has to do with the game calculating which is the most efficient route that still has supply.

Why are you ignoring the information i put? Pleases try to explain why the main Infantry unit that is being followed went to different place than the also infantry followers?

People are not ignoring you.

I asked about move mode you have not responded while other have suggested other stuff such as leaders.

Someone asked about the phrase 'direct' and was answered. I'd add that units set to follow do not have 'direct'.

It is also possible air attacks can cause units to do strange things, usually slow down but as they all have the same distances this is unlikely.

I'm willing to look at it but need your saves. Ideally I'd need at least three, one the turn they were orderd, the other two being before and after the problem. The one immediately before is the most important.

Having said that you can test yourself. Just reload the saves and check and change setting.

[WEXF]

2- The 36ID and 2 tank units did not attacked, they are in Kaifeng
[/quote]

I have been thinking about what might have happened and I have a theory. I am wondering if the 36ID and the two tank units actually did take part in the battle but were not recorded in the record of the attack. The attack was clearly a large one. The units you mentioned that were in the attack included 5 infantry units and an artillery unit.
Could you please post screen shots of the combat report that lists the units in the battle (both sides) and the numbers associated with the battle (top of the report).
I have seen times when a report on a large battle did not report all of the results.
You have said that all of the units were moving in "combat" mode so the distance the 36ID moved could not have happened by the rules on movement even though the roads are excellent.
Perhaps the answer is in the numbers?
Four other questions that might be important.
1. Was this attack the first time Japanese troops entered Changchow?
2. Were Japanese bombers and recon flight covering Changchow in recent days?
3. You said there was a HQ unit and another unit in the 88-43 hex. What were those units?
4. What were the two "tank" units?
WEXF

[Diliwitm]

I think the Follow command is subject to die rolls because it was never reliable from the time the game came out. What die rolls? Perhaps some leadership traits? Unit morale? Fatigue? Terrain (some units more affected by rough terrain than others)? Or maybe some factor that says the leader can't find the correct path?

I always "Set all to march" and work out the movement mode needed to get the units to arrive at the same time. Even then, low troop morale or low aggression/inspiration leadership can lead to the unit refusing to cross into the enemy hex.

If i am reminding right the follow command besides being convenient was created because of air attacks could slow down some units and not others. The follow command puts all at speed of slowest unit, important for assaults like this, specially for Singapore.
When the Follow Command send units to a different path it shows in the respective unit movement.

[Diliwitm]

Units considered "Armoured" are motorized and will often take a road route rather than slog overland. It has to do with the game calculating which is the most efficient route that still has supply.

Why are you ignoring the information i put? Pleases try to explain why the main Infantry unit that is being followed went to different place than the also infantry followers?

People are not ignoring you.

I asked about move mode you have not responded while other have suggested other stuff such as leaders.

Someone asked about the phrase 'direct' and was answered. I'd add that units set to follow do not have 'direct'.

It is also possible air attacks can cause units to do strange things, usually slow down but as they all have the same distances this is unlikely.

I'm willing to look at it but need your saves. Ideally I'd need at least three, one the turn they were orderd, the other two being before and after the problem. The one immediately before is the most important.

Having said that you can test yourself. Just reload the saves and check and change setting.

Thank you for the support.

The answer to your question is in first post.

They were following in combat movement the 36 ID direct combat movement to Chengchow.

There were no air attacks against my units, only against enemy units.

Will send a PM on how to setup how to send you the files.