[WAD] Bug or WAD? - F-35, SPEAR and EMCON

[p1t1o]

Hi,

First off, please find attached scenario file.

I have been away from the sim for some time and there are a couple of things I have noticed with a favorite scenario of mine that are confusing me:

UK SPEAR3-armed F-35:
Once SPEARs are released, if the target is within radar field-of-view, the radar will be active and there appears to be no option to keep it passive. Under *all possible WRA and/or sensor options* the radar will be active/switch back to active if the target is within FOV. This is true even if the radar is not required to spot the target or guide the weapons. Naturally, this can be a significant issue with maintaining low-observability since you cannot stop the radar pinging on during weapon deployment, and even when you need the radar to track a moving target (such as a ship), you dont always want *every* launching aircraft to keep their radars on until weapon impact, and turning away so that the target is no longer in FOV isnt always the option you want either.

Is this WAD? Or is there a setting I have overlooked?

I think my CMO version is up-to-date but I am using an old db version - DB3000v489 - could that be in play here?


I tested it with a harpoon-armed hornet as well, but did not observe the behavior - presumably it is something to do with SPEAR3's being in-flight-reroutable/retargetable.



The other thing I noticed, which is more minor -
In the "UNIT EMCON" section of the - I dont know what you call it, the "tall unit details window", I attached a screenshot.
Where it says "WARNING: Obeying EMCON (manual edit disabled)"
This *always* says that, regardless of any WRA/EMCON setting, including unchecking "unit obeys emcon" in the F9 sensor window, which enables manual quick-edit.

unit emcon.JPG (16.07 KiB) Viewed 469 times

Is this WAD? What am I missing?


I assume it is my ignorance of changes to the sim over several updates that causes me confusion, but the above cases have been frustrating as I am experiencing total loss of EMCON control under these circumstances.

If anyone can tell me which options/settings I need to use to resolve this, I would be immensely grateful!
Even just knowing that its WAD would be a relief and I can just try to work around it.

Thanks all,
Pete


edit:
CMO v1.07 build 1567.6
Windows 10 pro v10.0.19045

[Raptorx7_slith]

Untick "inherit from parent" so that it stops using the default side EMCON settings. That will stop it from turning its radar on when firing

[p1t1o]

Untick "inherit from parent" so that it stops using the default side EMCON settings. That will stop it from turning its radar on when firing

The default setting for side doctrine emcon is passive anyway, as it is in the example scenario and the scenario I am having problems with.

Even so, toggling the "inherit" setting was one of the first things I tried. No effect.

I cannot stop the radar from going active at weapon release.


For example (and you can easily try this in the example scenario), if you set it up this way:
Side doctrine set to passive.
F35 unit doctrine emcon set to passive.
F35 "inherit" box NOT checked.
F35 F9 sensor window, "unit obeys emcon" box NOT checked and radar not active.

ie: all possible options (that I know of) relating to side or to the specific unit are selected to indicate PASSIVE and NON-INHERITING behavior.

Launching a SPEAR immediately has the radar go active, and if options are changed back to passive, they flick back to active after a moment.

Yes I have tried many different combinations (ie: inheritance ON, for example) of the above settings without any effect.
The radar is activating despite the unit being certainly set to a "passive" doctrine, whether by inheritance or its own unit-specific doctrine.

I dont know how else to influence EMCON or radar behavior.


EDIT:

Another thing you can do in the test scenario to illustrate the behavior I am describing is this:

-Turn F35 away from target, so that it is outside of radar FOV.
-Now you can use the doctrine, emcon or sensor settings to deactivate the radar in a familiar manner as one would normally manipulate radar/emcon and it reacts as one would expect. If the F35 is set up to react to a passive doctrine setting (such as: Side set to passive, F35 set to inherit), then the radar will deactivate automatically.
-Turn off the radar in whatever way you are most comfortable with.
-Now turn the F35 back to face the target.
-No matter what settings are set, the radar will re-activate.

[mikerohan]

Same thing happening here (Build 1728.2):

Flight 1058, north of Iceland, is about to fire an AIM-9x (IR seeker).
As soon as the missile is fired, radar is turned on, even though everything is checked not to turn radars on under any circumstance.

I keep clicking on "passive" for radar, but it reverts to "active".

Still trying to understand if this is WAD or bug... If WAD, could anyone explain me how to prevent radars turning on when the weapon being launched does not need a radar guidance?

0.zip

(561.35 KiB) Downloaded 6 times

[blu3s]

The SPEAR seems to be WAD atm, the F-35 needs the contact location with its own sensor in order to be able to fire and guide the weapon, that's why it turns the radar ON and there's no way atm to turn it off.

[blu3s]

My bad, the AIM-9X-3 has also a datalink (AIM-9X is only INS + IR) and the Raptor has not IRST to guide passive the missile so atm it's WAD

[Blast33]

The AIM-9X is launched at a distance of 16Nm. That is further than the assessed (AI) range of 10 Nm for the block-1. Therefore it needs guidance and it is called Lock On After Launch (LOAL).

This is an explaination of AI:
The AIM-9X LOAL capability, meaning Lock-On After Launch, is a feature of the AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder missile that allows it to be fired before the target is locked on and then guided to its target by the launching aircraft's radar or datalink after launch. This advanced capability provides the pilot flexibility to engage targets that are not in the missile's line of sight during launch, enhancing the missile's overall effectiveness.

How LOAL Works
Launch Before Lock: Unlike older missiles that require a direct lock on the target before launch, the AIM-9X Block II can be fired into the general vicinity of a target.
In-Flight Guidance: The launching aircraft, using its radar or other datalink systems, can then provide updated targeting information to the missile after it has been fired.
Sophisticated Seeker: The missile's sophisticated infrared seeker then uses this data to lock onto the target and guide itself to the final intercept.

Benefits of LOAL
Increased Flexibility: Pilots can engage targets more effectively, even if the target is maneuvering or has previously been out of the missile's direct line-of-sight.
Improved Engagement Opportunities: The ability to fire first and then guide allows for engagements in scenarios where a pre-launch lock might be difficult or impossible to obtain.
Enhanced Situational Awareness: LOAL improves the missile's ability to operate in dynamic and complex environments, providing an advantage in modern aerial combat.

When the F-22 is upgraded with IR pods this will be different:

f-22-stealthy-pods.jpg (18.61 KiB) Viewed 167 times

https://www.twz.com/air/f-22-raptors-co ... r-upgrades

What points in your favour is that guidance via a datalink is also possible.
AI says: The F-22 Raptor uses its Intra-Flight Data Link (IFDL) for secure, low-probability-of-detection communication. But in CMO every info is shared realtime with everybody in the same side.
So that is not een option.
Yet.


About the SPEAR-3 (this is what you get if you put two topics in one topic)

AI says: SPEAR 3 is a network-enabled weapon, allowing it to receive target data and updates from other assets in flight. So it can fire at moving targets as long as it gets updates (from a radar who can see the target) via the datalink.
BUT it also has a laser but than you have to be very close to make that work. And the purpose of the SPEAR is stand-off with a 80Nm range in CMO. So laser is only an option with someone on the ground lasing the target close by.

But you can circumvent this!
I placed a UAV launch truck and have the radar of the F-35B turned off. I manually target the truck and the Spear-3 comes of the rail. The radar of the F-35 turns on to provide updates.
Then unasign your A/C with (U) and turn your launch A/C away from the target. Put your radar off and it will stay off!...as long as the missile does not get into its line-of-sight again (than the radar will auto turn on again...)

A bit of micromanagement but possible. And the Spear-3 will hit the target every time.
Hope this helps.

Evidence:

Radar off.jpg (47.92 KiB) Viewed 167 times

[mikerohan]

The AIM-9X is launched at a distance of 16Nm. That is further than the assessed (AI) range of 10 Nm for the block-1. Therefore it needs guidance and it is called Lock On After Launch (LOAL).

Thanks for the detailed explanation

About the SPEAR-3 (this is what you get if you put two topics in one topic)

That is my bad. Sorry! before this detailed explanation it looked to me that it could be another evidence of the same problem.

Thanks!