Been a long time since I played but updated my game to version 10.06.91 beta and the FW 190 MOD. I have been able to begin production of the He 219s in mid-September 1943 and at this point have produced 120. Problem: none of the aircraft are going into the aircraft pool, thus preventing me from changing aircraft to the He 219 for night fighter units. The game is not updating any units to the He 219 on its on. There are stockpiles of engines (275) and parts (176) to support production.
Question: How do I have the game place the aircraft, once produced, to be put into the aircraft pool?
Concerns, the He 219 was advanced in production due to research and development, from Jan 44 introduction to Sep 1943 production. If advance aircrafts are developed and begin being produced prior to their historical introduction time, will these aircraft sit in the produced category and not placed the the aircraft pool?
I'm testing this with the Fw 190 D-9 and the same result is occurring, being produced but not being placed in its aircraft pool.
thank you
Produced aircraft are not going into pool
Moderators: Joel Billings, simovitch, harley, warshipbuilder
Re: Produced aircraft are not going into pool
Just checking: are you producing airframes? You mentioned stocks of engines, and parts, but didn't mention the airframes needed to produce the aircraft.
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
Re: Produced aircraft are not going into pool
Yes, airframes are being produced. And by the way, I'm playing the long 1943 campaign for all of this.
It was a shock to me that the He 219 begun being produced almost immediately at the start of the game. I checked the research and development status and it is only at 1% so the production appears to be in error. I guess the thing I'm mostly concerned with is that when the aircraft truly becomes available, JAN 44 if it does not advance in development, all the produced aircraft sitting in the produced category will remain in that category and not moved to the aircraft pool.
I saved my production changes at the beginning of the game, before any flying took place. I copied the saved file and placed it into a copy of the game that is patched through 6.83 with hotfix and the FW MOD. Started a new 1943 campaign and immediately the He 219 begun to be produced but none going into the pool.
Next step is to start a new game again and change production from scratch to see if this is a one time event or the changes I make to production repeats this issue. This will be followed by starting a new game without the FW MOD to determine if the FW MOD is not compatible with the latest game patches. Boy I hope that is not the case as I love the FW MOD.
It was a shock to me that the He 219 begun being produced almost immediately at the start of the game. I checked the research and development status and it is only at 1% so the production appears to be in error. I guess the thing I'm mostly concerned with is that when the aircraft truly becomes available, JAN 44 if it does not advance in development, all the produced aircraft sitting in the produced category will remain in that category and not moved to the aircraft pool.
I saved my production changes at the beginning of the game, before any flying took place. I copied the saved file and placed it into a copy of the game that is patched through 6.83 with hotfix and the FW MOD. Started a new 1943 campaign and immediately the He 219 begun to be produced but none going into the pool.
Next step is to start a new game again and change production from scratch to see if this is a one time event or the changes I make to production repeats this issue. This will be followed by starting a new game without the FW MOD to determine if the FW MOD is not compatible with the latest game patches. Boy I hope that is not the case as I love the FW MOD.
Re: Produced aircraft are not going into pool
You can produce airframes, parts, engines etc. for future aircraft. You only need to produce 10 complete aircraft (prototypes) for research purposes, and any more than that go to waste and will not show up in your pools.
simovitch
Re: Produced aircraft are not going into pool
My production for the He 219 is assembly = 10, parts = 10, DB 603A engines = 20. These are production goals/planned as the factories are not online because they are transitioning from other aircraft production. Currently, He 219 production has 2 assembly active, with supporting engine and parts.
In the past, nothing showed up in replacement aircraft window until the aircraft began to be produced for distribution to the units (with excess production aircraft appearing int the aircraft pool). My experience was that the more resources you apply to research of advance aircraft and engines, the more likely production will be accelerated. There is a balance of course, nothing is automatic nor guaranteed. When I read the limit is 10 for research and development, my understanding is setting the production to 10 for assembly with supporting engine and parts production is the limit for research and development. If the case is all you need to do is produce 10 aircraft, then does that defeat the purpose of research and development? We will be pretty much locked into the historical timeline for aircraft and engine development, therefore, being locked into the use of aircraft already in production. This was a major failure of Germany's leaders earlier in the war. Thinking what they had was good enough until they achieved victory, thus cancelling development of engines that would eventually be reinstated into development then production to support advance aircraft. Example: The DB 605 is a great engine but I want to have access to the Jumo 213 series sooner rather than later.
I think I'm following the following research and development criteria:
1st month - 100 machines researched (100 engines + 100 frames)
2nd month - 200 machines + cost of 1st month -> total cost is 300 machines
3rd month - 300 machines and SUM of 1st and 2nd month
8th month - 800 machines + SUM of 1st to 7th
9th month a further 800 machines for each + SUM of all other
Using the He 219 as an example, having 2 x aircraft per day assembled will result in having a total of 60 aircraft for SEP 43. Are these the machines research number? If I increase production and the new factories come on line, then does that increase the machines researched numbers and if so, increase the chance of getting the aircraft into production and to the units sooner than is now scheduled? Since 10 is the limit, the most I can produce for research and development per month is approximately 300, giving me a chance to introduce the aircraft months before the historical timeline.
If I'm misinterpreting research and development constraints, please advise how to create the conditions needed to bring advance aircraft into service sooner than what historically occurred.
In the past, I found the ability to alter historical decisions made the game playable over and over again, trying different strategies.
In the past, nothing showed up in replacement aircraft window until the aircraft began to be produced for distribution to the units (with excess production aircraft appearing int the aircraft pool). My experience was that the more resources you apply to research of advance aircraft and engines, the more likely production will be accelerated. There is a balance of course, nothing is automatic nor guaranteed. When I read the limit is 10 for research and development, my understanding is setting the production to 10 for assembly with supporting engine and parts production is the limit for research and development. If the case is all you need to do is produce 10 aircraft, then does that defeat the purpose of research and development? We will be pretty much locked into the historical timeline for aircraft and engine development, therefore, being locked into the use of aircraft already in production. This was a major failure of Germany's leaders earlier in the war. Thinking what they had was good enough until they achieved victory, thus cancelling development of engines that would eventually be reinstated into development then production to support advance aircraft. Example: The DB 605 is a great engine but I want to have access to the Jumo 213 series sooner rather than later.
I think I'm following the following research and development criteria:
1st month - 100 machines researched (100 engines + 100 frames)
2nd month - 200 machines + cost of 1st month -> total cost is 300 machines
3rd month - 300 machines and SUM of 1st and 2nd month
8th month - 800 machines + SUM of 1st to 7th
9th month a further 800 machines for each + SUM of all other
Using the He 219 as an example, having 2 x aircraft per day assembled will result in having a total of 60 aircraft for SEP 43. Are these the machines research number? If I increase production and the new factories come on line, then does that increase the machines researched numbers and if so, increase the chance of getting the aircraft into production and to the units sooner than is now scheduled? Since 10 is the limit, the most I can produce for research and development per month is approximately 300, giving me a chance to introduce the aircraft months before the historical timeline.
If I'm misinterpreting research and development constraints, please advise how to create the conditions needed to bring advance aircraft into service sooner than what historically occurred.
In the past, I found the ability to alter historical decisions made the game playable over and over again, trying different strategies.
Re: Produced aircraft are not going into pool
Okay, this is what I believe I'm seeing. In past versions of the game, when an aircraft was being developed, the number of airframes assembled were applied to the "machines researched" but did not appear on the aircraft replacement window. Now, they are appearing on the aircraft replacement window but are not available in the pool. If I'm off on all this research and development process, than I'm completely lost. If I am correct, than may I request a hotfix to prevent these aircraft from appearing in the production category.
thank youi
thank youi
Re: Produced aircraft are not going into pool
The changes in research were done by harley, and I left them alone. So It no longer makes sense to build 100's of aircraft to improve research. You build 10 and that's what the scientist guys play with. Getting to a research breakthrough is somewhat randomized but nothing is going to happen until you get a prototype built.
From the aircraft production manual:
"The research process consumes aircraft components at the factories to build prototype aircraft. Prototypes will show up as replacements on the Replacements screen but new aircraft won’t start being added to your pool of available aircraft until after the aircraft availability date. You can see how many prototypes are built by looking at the number of replacements produced. The chance of a research “breakthrough” increases as the availability date approaches and with the number of prototypes built, up to 10 prototypes. Until you have achieved the availability date, any prototype built past 10 goes to waste along with its airframe, parts, and engines so take that into account when retooling your factories.
Each research “breakthrough” will accelerate the availability date of the aircraft by 1 month. Starting with EDBTR version 1.06.77 you can see the % progress toward the next “breakthrough” in the “Weapons Database” screen for any future aircraft."
From the aircraft production manual:
"The research process consumes aircraft components at the factories to build prototype aircraft. Prototypes will show up as replacements on the Replacements screen but new aircraft won’t start being added to your pool of available aircraft until after the aircraft availability date. You can see how many prototypes are built by looking at the number of replacements produced. The chance of a research “breakthrough” increases as the availability date approaches and with the number of prototypes built, up to 10 prototypes. Until you have achieved the availability date, any prototype built past 10 goes to waste along with its airframe, parts, and engines so take that into account when retooling your factories.
Each research “breakthrough” will accelerate the availability date of the aircraft by 1 month. Starting with EDBTR version 1.06.77 you can see the % progress toward the next “breakthrough” in the “Weapons Database” screen for any future aircraft."
simovitch
Re: Produced aircraft are not going into pool
thank you for explanation simovitch. I just went through the He 219 development cycle meaning that the the research did go to 97% then the following day it read 0%. I take this to mean 100%, however, the day after, the research cycle begun again with the development reading 4%. Five days after this point, a/c are being produced but not placed in the pool (this is mid-Oct 1943) so I assume this to mean that I might see He 219s are into pool only in November, 1 month prior to listed availability date (maybe).
Part of joy of playing the game is that it allowed me to address what I think were "mis-guided" decisions made by the Luftwaffe/political leadership of Germany. Just to play the "what if" scenarios. Now being limited in providing research capability means there really isn't much of a difference I can do compared to what historically took place. And for me, that means it was fun playing once, maybe twice, anything more, not interesting therefore not interested.
Still a wonderful game, love it, it is just not re-playable.
There was a lot of work into this and I really do thank you.
Part of joy of playing the game is that it allowed me to address what I think were "mis-guided" decisions made by the Luftwaffe/political leadership of Germany. Just to play the "what if" scenarios. Now being limited in providing research capability means there really isn't much of a difference I can do compared to what historically took place. And for me, that means it was fun playing once, maybe twice, anything more, not interesting therefore not interested.
Still a wonderful game, love it, it is just not re-playable.
There was a lot of work into this and I really do thank you.
Re: Produced aircraft are not going into pool
You already achieved a breakthrough with the 219, which moves the availability date closer by one month. When the progress reaches 100% again, another breakthrough occurs and you move it closer by another month, and so on until your current turn month is the same as the new availability date. Then you get the green light to produce combat-ready aircraft.
Hang in there. I think you will discover that you can speed up the availability of future designs quite effectively with the current system.
Hang in there. I think you will discover that you can speed up the availability of future designs quite effectively with the current system.
simovitch
Re: Produced aircraft are not going into pool
Thanks again simovitch, my thoughts are regarding long term gameplay. Is there enough variables to be able to replay the game over and over again with each replay allowing for significant enough changes to see "what it" scenarios can be played out and the gameplay is not too similar to the last time I played.
If the game is ever re-developed for modern PCs, this may be a request for R&D coding. With more assets tasked with development of an advance aircraft, engineering problems and solution testing allow more concurrent testing of said potential fixes rather than sequential solution testing. In other words, development of an aircraft speeds up as it allows additional prototypes to be used by an increase size of the development teams. This allows solutions to problems with the aircraft design to be worked out more rapidly as solutions to be tested will never be all ready at one time. Test a set of solutions on an prototype while other solutions are being researched and developed to be place on a later prototype. No guarantees but opens possibilities.
This raises another aspect of R&D, using the Focke-Wulf series of fighters as an example. The Ta 152 series owes a lot its development from the Fw 190D series. Yes, the Ta 152 used a completely different airframe, but the lessons learned through the Fw 190 D development directly contributed to the design decisions of the Ta 152. So the R&D of the Ta 152 ran parallel with the 190D development. As Kurt Tank said, the 190D was an interim aircraft to the Ta 152 meaning that both aircraft were in development at the same time, but the Ta 152 was not ready at the same time as the 190D. Being able to accelerate the development of the 190D in theory will automatically accelerate the development of the Ta 152. Not at the same rate but solutions found to allow the 190D to fly earlier are also solutions that would have been developed and incorporated into the Ta 152 earlier.
Following along those lines is engine development. I do not know if this part is already incorporated into the game but in order to develop the Jumo 213E engine, you must develop the Jumo 213A first. Same with the DB 603A is developed before the DB 603L can be developed. Within the current version of the game, if I assign one engine factory to produce the 213A and assign another factory to produce the 213E and all things equal (both versions have 10 engines built about the same time) will both be developed concurrently? Or will the game coding prevent the development of the 213E to begin until the 213A is being produced? I don't think I'm going to test it as I do want to maintain some semblance of reality, LOL.
Boy I hope that was not too confusing.
FYI: I played USAAF when it first came came out (love the 5 1/2 inch disk), played 12 O'Clock High: Bombing the Reich followed by Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich when it first came out, played a couple of times but found myself repeating the same decisions, same orders etc resulting in less interest in playing it again. Then the Fw 190 Mod came, renewed my interest in the game and played again a couple of times, loving it all. Then came windows 10 and windows 11. Had a super hard time getting the game to work including when using DXwind. Biggest problem that I could not find a solution for is that I had all the text highlighted in pink. I followed the solutions found within the forum but they were not effective for me. The problem is directly attributed to the operating system until I updated my PC to version 24H2 build 26100.6725 in June this year and trying the game again (through DXwind), everything is working, no more pink highlight.
What does all this means? I'm frick'n old and stubborn and PC code illiterate. Where is my coffee?
One final request - I looked for an updated manual and found references to one but I have failed to find it. Can you direct me to it please.
Next step - starting a new 1943 long campaign incorporating a better understanding of R&D. thank you again
If the game is ever re-developed for modern PCs, this may be a request for R&D coding. With more assets tasked with development of an advance aircraft, engineering problems and solution testing allow more concurrent testing of said potential fixes rather than sequential solution testing. In other words, development of an aircraft speeds up as it allows additional prototypes to be used by an increase size of the development teams. This allows solutions to problems with the aircraft design to be worked out more rapidly as solutions to be tested will never be all ready at one time. Test a set of solutions on an prototype while other solutions are being researched and developed to be place on a later prototype. No guarantees but opens possibilities.
This raises another aspect of R&D, using the Focke-Wulf series of fighters as an example. The Ta 152 series owes a lot its development from the Fw 190D series. Yes, the Ta 152 used a completely different airframe, but the lessons learned through the Fw 190 D development directly contributed to the design decisions of the Ta 152. So the R&D of the Ta 152 ran parallel with the 190D development. As Kurt Tank said, the 190D was an interim aircraft to the Ta 152 meaning that both aircraft were in development at the same time, but the Ta 152 was not ready at the same time as the 190D. Being able to accelerate the development of the 190D in theory will automatically accelerate the development of the Ta 152. Not at the same rate but solutions found to allow the 190D to fly earlier are also solutions that would have been developed and incorporated into the Ta 152 earlier.
Following along those lines is engine development. I do not know if this part is already incorporated into the game but in order to develop the Jumo 213E engine, you must develop the Jumo 213A first. Same with the DB 603A is developed before the DB 603L can be developed. Within the current version of the game, if I assign one engine factory to produce the 213A and assign another factory to produce the 213E and all things equal (both versions have 10 engines built about the same time) will both be developed concurrently? Or will the game coding prevent the development of the 213E to begin until the 213A is being produced? I don't think I'm going to test it as I do want to maintain some semblance of reality, LOL.
Boy I hope that was not too confusing.
FYI: I played USAAF when it first came came out (love the 5 1/2 inch disk), played 12 O'Clock High: Bombing the Reich followed by Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich when it first came out, played a couple of times but found myself repeating the same decisions, same orders etc resulting in less interest in playing it again. Then the Fw 190 Mod came, renewed my interest in the game and played again a couple of times, loving it all. Then came windows 10 and windows 11. Had a super hard time getting the game to work including when using DXwind. Biggest problem that I could not find a solution for is that I had all the text highlighted in pink. I followed the solutions found within the forum but they were not effective for me. The problem is directly attributed to the operating system until I updated my PC to version 24H2 build 26100.6725 in June this year and trying the game again (through DXwind), everything is working, no more pink highlight.
What does all this means? I'm frick'n old and stubborn and PC code illiterate. Where is my coffee?
One final request - I looked for an updated manual and found references to one but I have failed to find it. Can you direct me to it please.
Next step - starting a new 1943 long campaign incorporating a better understanding of R&D. thank you again
Re: Produced aircraft are not going into pool
DWatson60, all good points about R&D; admittedly EDBTR's current version is somewhat abstracted.
The Matrix version of the manual has not been updated since the initial 2009-2010 releases. However, the "what's new" document that comes updated with each patch is a must-read and an invaluable source of information about all of the updates and rules changes that have been done since 2009. Also, in the "Manuals" folder I created user guides for LW & RAF aircraft production and research, another for nightfighter play, and another for pbem. I felt that all of these important topics were woefully under addressed in the Manual.
One important change you should know is that aircraft in play will not auto-upgrade for the human player. You need to do this manually as new types get produced.
I'm an old grognard myself, cutting my wargaming teeth on Avalon Hill's "Gettysburg" back in 1972 and never looking back.
Cheers,
The Matrix version of the manual has not been updated since the initial 2009-2010 releases. However, the "what's new" document that comes updated with each patch is a must-read and an invaluable source of information about all of the updates and rules changes that have been done since 2009. Also, in the "Manuals" folder I created user guides for LW & RAF aircraft production and research, another for nightfighter play, and another for pbem. I felt that all of these important topics were woefully under addressed in the Manual.
One important change you should know is that aircraft in play will not auto-upgrade for the human player. You need to do this manually as new types get produced.
I'm an old grognard myself, cutting my wargaming teeth on Avalon Hill's "Gettysburg" back in 1972 and never looking back.
Cheers,
simovitch